Rights vs Welfare

[Dandelion]

Originally Posted by mountainvegan

Gary Francione has posted in his blog about his dinner at Erik Marcus’s “Happy Meat” Diner

Francione is pwning.

[grog]

i hate podcasts
i can read a lot faster than i can listen.

[mountainvegan]

Originally Posted by Dandelion

Francione is pwning.

I was able to listen to the whole podcast last night and this morning.

It wasn’t even a debate; it was more like young, misguided Erik going to his first day of elementary school and learning the ABCs of animal advocacy taught by Professor Francione.

This is what happens when an average guy like Erik assumes the unenviable position of having to defend the indefensible against a brilliant, knowledgeable, and far superior opponent. I’ve never heard, read, or witnessed such a thorough ass-whooping in my life.

Whatever you think about abolition vs. welfare, if you have not heard that “debate”, then listen to it; if you have not read Francione’s books, read them.

[Dandelion]

Originally Posted by mountainvegan

It wasn’t even a debate; it was more like young, misguided Erik going to his first day of elementary school and learning the ABCs of animal advocacy taught by Professor Francione.

i was shocked that Erik never even read any Francione. Erik admitted that only after Francione asked him why he doesn't sell any of his books on vegan.com.
You're right, it was no debate, in so many ways. I almost made an entire thread based upon that podcast but i just don't have the energy for it.

[quagga]

Originally Posted by mountainvegan

This is what happens when an average guy like Erik assumes the unenviable position of having to defend the indefensible against a brilliant, knowledgeable, and far superior opponent. I’ve never heard, read, or witnessed such a thorough ass-whooping in my life.

Poor erik! There is nothing that strikes more fear in me than defending a position - any position, either in writing or, worse, orally. Even a position I believe in strongly. I'd far rather just lead a mind to water and let it drink for itself. Erik is a good researcher and is ferocious in exposing the industrialized torture of factory farming, but he's stepping into deep waters with the welfare v. abolition issue and with criticizing abolitionists.

MV - have you listened to Erik Marcus' followup podcast debate between HSUS Paul Shapiro and Francione? I see it's only about 25 minutes long.

I haven't listened to any of these yet, but am looking forward to it.

[mountainvegan]

Originally Posted by Dandelion

i was shocked that Erik never even read any Francione. Erik admitted that only after Francione asked him why he doesn't sell any of his books on vegan.com.

That was pathetic. I lost a lot of respect for Erik when he dismissed Francione’s work as not worth his time, especially when he argued with such complete ignorance for 2 hours prior. I thought Erik owed Gary an apology for his arrogance.

[mountainvegan]

Originally Posted by quagga

Poor erik! There is nothing that strikes more fear in me than defending a position - any position, either in writing or, worse, orally. Even a position I believe in strongly. I'd far rather just lead a mind to water and let it drink for itself. Erik is a good researcher and is ferocious in exposing the industrialized torture of factory farming, but he's stepping into deep waters with the welfare v. abolition issue and with criticizing abolitionists.

MV - have you listened to Erik Marcus' followup podcast debate between HSUS Paul Shapiro and Francione? I see it's only about 25 minutes long.

I haven't listened to any of these yet, but am looking forward to it.

Erik sure is stepping into deep water criticizing Francione and abolitionists. I'm glad he got schooled. He should think about his position prior to shooting off his mouth.

I have not listened to the Shapiro/Francione debate yet, but I guarantee Gary will rip into Paul quite severely also. These guys are no match for Francione, either as debaters or as holding a decent argument.

[Dandelion]

Originally Posted by quagga

Poor erik! There is nothing that strikes more fear in me than defending a position - any position, either in writing or, worse, orally. Even a position I believe in strongly. I'd far rather just lead a mind to water and let it drink for itself. Erik is a good researcher and is ferocious in exposing the industrialized torture of factory farming, but he's stepping into deep waters with the welfare v. abolition issue and with criticizing abolitionists.

MV - have you listened to Erik Marcus' followup podcast debate between HSUS Paul Shapiro and Francione? I see it's only about 25 minutes long.

I haven't listened to any of these yet, but am looking forward to it.

yeah Erik was outta his league.
They need a good moderator and to get Singer and Shapiro in there. The followup seemed snipey to me and didn't really clear anything up.
Francione even said 'you do your thing i'll do mine, fine but just don't attack me for it' and i whole-heartedly agree.

[mountainvegan]

Francione will rip all three of those guys (Singer, Shapiro, and Marcus) apart at the same time with or without a moderator. They are no match either as debaters or as holding a decent argument.

[Dandelion]

Originally Posted by mountainvegan

That was pathetic. I lost a lot of respect for Erik when he dismissed Francione’s work as not worth his time

i totally agree. you'd think if you were gonna debate someone about something you should know a little about their position, yeah?

[Dandelion]

Originally Posted by mountainvegan

Francione will rip all three of those guys (Singer, Shapiro, and Marcus) apart at the same time with or without a moderator. They are no match either as debaters or as holding a decent argument.

yes but a moderator will help facilitate so at least something constructive can come of it.

[Dandelion]

Originally Posted by quagga

MV - have you listened to Erik Marcus' followup podcast debate between HSUS Paul Shapiro and Francione?

ps- it wasn't Shapiro vs Francione, it was Shapiro and Marcus licking their wounds.

[mountainvegan]

Originally Posted by Dandelion

ps- it wasn't Shapiro vs Francione, it was Shapiro and Marcus licking their wounds.

Hehe, that's pretty lame. I'll listen for entertainment.

With 2 or 3 versus 1, a moderator is definitely needed to get anything coherent out of it. Otherwise, it would just be an interruption contest.

[mountainvegan]

Incidentally, Gary was extremely patient and easy on Erik. He literally waited minutes until Erik was finished stumbling and bumbling in shock and awe.

[Dandelion]

Originally Posted by mountainvegan

Incidentally, Gary was extremely patient and easy on Erik. He literally waited minutes until Erik was finished stumbling and bumbling in shock and awe.

yup, once Erik complained about being interrupted, Francione held off almost in a sarcastic way. But that sorta diatribe/response format is so unwieldy nothing gets accomplished.