Legit objections to Veganism

[schmeel]

This thread about dumb arguments against veganism, and this thread about the anti vegan sermon on the joke site www.landoverbaptist.org got me wondering...

Are there actual legit arguments against Veganism? I googled around for a little bit trying to find anti-vegan sites, but the best thing I could find were college students claiming veganism was a drain on our economy...but that was it.

If there aren't any good arguments against veganism, why aren't there more of us?

[Mason]

Originally Posted by schmeel

If there aren't any good arguments against veganism, why aren't there more of us?

Cognitive dissonance.

[bird]

Originally Posted by schmeel

I googled around for a little bit trying to find anti-vegan sites, but the best thing I could find were college students claiming veganism was a drain on our economy...but that was it.

I don't understand that. There are tons of vegan entrepreneurs and vegan small businesses that have sprung up to meet our specific needs. And the purchasing patterns of most vegans often correlates positively with higher price goods - we pay a premium for things that are fair trade, fair labor, organic, and non-GMO. Sometimes intentionally vegan items such as shoes and bags are even more expensive than their animal-product counterparts. There is definitely an argument to be made for veganism stimulating the economy.

[schmeel]

The argument about the economy was pretty weak, but it basically complained that Vegansim takes away from the meat and dairy economies. I'm not saying it's a good argument. I'm much happier supporting an economy based on the value of life and kind treatment of animals rather than an economy based on the torture, slavery and death of animals...but that argument was the best thing I could find.

[bird]

Originally Posted by schmeel

The argument about the economy was pretty weak, but it basically complained that Vegansim takes away from the meat and dairy economies.

What those people don't realize is that a lot of the brands vegans buy, like Lightlife and Silk, are owned by meat and dairy companies anyway. We may buy vegan groceries at Whole Foods, for example, but that's still a store that sells meat, fish, and dairy. Nevertheless, the chain still profits from our purchases there. Same thing with eating veggie at omni restaurants.

It's not as if vegans drop out of the omni economy. At this point that's not a practical or viable option for most of us. And not all vegans even want to exclusively patronize vegan businesses.

[Hippopotamine]

Originally Posted by cymraegrrl

I don't understand that. There are tons of vegan entrepreneurs and vegan small businesses that have sprung up to meet our specific needs. And the purchasing patterns of most vegans often correlates positively with higher price goods - we pay a premium for things that are fair trade, fair labor, organic, and non-GMO. Sometimes intentionally vegan items such as shoes and bags are even more expensive than their animal-product counterparts. There is definitely an argument to be made for veganism stimulating the economy.

I agree with you. I think when people claim veganism is bad for the economy they are just not thinking. I've actally heard the argument that veganism would be horrible for the environment because "think of how many more crops we'd have to grow, and all the forests that would have to be cut down to make room for the crops, and all the extra water we'd need for the crops..." Of course, they have it all backwards because they aren't considering what it currently takes to feed all the animals people eat.

[attackferret]

Veganism, when you don't have the time/inclination to cook, can be a lot more expensive than vegetarianism (I can't compare against an omni diet, I didn't buy food then). It takes more effort. Eating out can be annoying if omni friends want to go somewhere like applebees. If someone doesn't feel strongly about the issues (indeed, if they don't really care at all), the extra money and/or effort required to be vegan may not seem worth it.

ETA: the above isn't an argument against veganism, more just one of many answers to the question of why there aren't more vegans.

[bird]

If someone were living in an economically depressed area, with poor to no public transportation and greengrocers, then I can definitely see how veganism could be far from that person's mind. It's so sad how cheap meat is, period, but especially when compared to the price of fresh vegetables (never mind organic/locally grown/non-GE/seasonality concerns). If someone were in such a situation, they might very well feel that they have bigger problems to worry about than animal cruelty.

[Kat]

Originally Posted by cymraegrrl

If someone were in such a situation, they might very well feel that they have bigger problems to worry about than animal cruelty.

Especially if someone depended on a food bank for their food. Some food banks have points systems where you can "shop" and choose foods you like (according to certain limits: like you get 20 points to shop with, soup is one point, limit four soups). It might be possible to stick to vegan foods in such a food bank. But other (possibly most?) food banks pre-pack boxes of food and the client has no say in what they end up with.

Drop-in centres and soup kitchens don't usually have a wide variety of foods, and what is available is usually not vegan (although it may be possible to get vegetarian foods like macaroni and cheese, mashed potatos, vegetable medley, whatever. Lot of carbs, not a lot of protein or vitamins).

Most towns and cities don't have a Food Not Bombs chapter.

So, if someone were in a situation where foods from food banks and drop-in centres were their ONLY source of food, I can see why a person wouldn't be vegan. I've had some vegan/vegetarian friends who have found themselves in these situations, and all of them ended up eating meat eventually just so that they wouldn't have to be hungry all the time.

(I know a lot of times I see vegans on message boards being all noble and saying "I'd sooner die than eat meat!"....usually three days without food changes that outlook.)

[bird]

Originally Posted by Kat

Especially if someone depended on a food bank for their food. Some food banks have points systems where you can "shop" and choose foods you like (according to certain limits: like you get 20 points to shop with, soup is one point, limit four soups). It might be possible to stick to vegan foods in such a food bank. But other (possibly most?) food banks pre-pack boxes of food and the client has no say in what they end up with.

Drop-in centres and soup kitchens don't usually have a wide variety of foods, and what is available is usually not vegan (although it may be possible to get vegetarian foods like macaroni and cheese, mashed potatos, vegetable medley, whatever. Lot of carbs, not a lot of protein or vitamins).

Most towns and cities don't have a Food Not Bombs chapter.

So, if someone were in a situation where foods from food banks and drop-in centres were their ONLY source of food, I can see why a person wouldn't be vegan. I've had some vegan/vegetarian friends who have found themselves in these situations, and all of them ended up eating meat eventually just so that they wouldn't have to be hungry all the time.

(I know a lot of times I see vegans on message boards being all noble and saying "I'd sooner die than eat meat!"....usually three days without food changes that outlook.)

That's true. You know how a lot of vegans say that they dream of opening an animal sanctuary or a vegan café/restaurant? For a while now, my fantasy has been to start some vegan food banks. I would also love to run a horse rehabilitation sanctuary, though.

[askwhy]

When determining why someone is vegan, what are the typicaly reasons?

1) Health?
2) Treatment of Animals?
3) Get Laid (Social Reasons)?

Let's take each scenario.

1) Health

Being vegan does not automatically make you healthy. You can still eat all the refined sugar and potato chips you want. Additionally, are there no healthy omnivores? Of course there are.

How much "meat" is too much? Is one egg a week unhealthy? Two eggs a week?

2) Treatment of Animals

Probably the most compelling reason is the treatment of animals, which is the reason I went vegetarian. However, by being vegan/vegetarian you remove yourself from the concerns of the meat and dairy producers. You are beyond any efforts they could possibly make to switch you back to eating meat. Thus, you are of no concern to them.

However, if you are a conscious meat and dairy consumer, you can use your dollars to put pressure on meat and dairy producers to treat animals as "fair" as possible. You have some voting power by only buying meat and dairy from "humane" providers.

However you must accept the idea that meat and dairy consumption is here to stay. But you say nay! "If enough people went vegan we could put the producers out of business!" Beyond being unrealistic, this brings forth another interesting aspect of vegan/vegetarianism, and that is its "elite/cult" factor.

Interestingly enough none of my vegan or vegetarian friends really talk about being vegan or vegetarian to other NON-vegan/vegetarian people. It consumes nearly all their life, but they apparently don't want to bother or educate omnivores unless prompted. This has a backwards effect. If you're so passionate about the treatment of animals, wouldn't you be promoting veganism/vegetarianism? Wouldn't you be driving out to meat and dairy farms and staging protests? Boycotting steak houses and forming picket lines?

(Begin Devils Advocate)
Is a Nazi any less of a Nazi if he knows that people are being killed in concentration camps, but decides not to participate in that aspect of the cause?

At least those Nazi's who were conscious AND played a role in the concentration camps could do *something* to help the victims.
(End Devils Advocate)

3) Get Laid (Social Reasons)

Let's face it, some people go vegan/vegetarian because that hot guy or girl is vegan and he/she wants to get in their pants. I'm not saying this is true of everyone, but it certainly is true for some.

Additionally, they think all the vegan kids are cool and want to be a part of the crowd. In my experience, the crowd, is composed of a group of self-righteous people who form a sort of elite/closed group. Which is interesting and antithetical to promoting vegan/vegatarianism.

You can't have a "cool" underground trend that you want to keep cool and secret AND make a difference. Ever known someone to really like a band until they got popular?

--

Anyhow, those are some of the more compelling arguments I've heard. Your thoughts?

[Kat]

Originally Posted by cymraegrrl

For a while now, my fantasy has been to start some vegan food banks.

I think that's an awesome idea Or, in lieu of that, donating vegan foods to the food bank (or soup kitchen, drop in centre, homeless shelter, women's shelter, youth shelter, etc etc).

One thing I'd like to do, if I ever had the money, would be to "sponser" a veg*n youth at the youth shelter. I'd ask the shelter to give me a call if they were ever in need of meals for a veg*n youth, and if that ever happened, I could buy and donate foods to the shelter such as hummus, clif bars, veggie burgers, etc, so that there would be a veg option available for the youth.

But, I'm broke. That idea will have to sit on the back burner for awhile.

[bird]

Originally Posted by cymraegrrl

You know how a lot of vegans say that they dream of opening an animal sanctuary or a vegan café/restaurant? For a while now, my fantasy has been to start some vegan food banks. I would also love to run a horse rehabilitation sanctuary, though.

Remember this? Since I've got a blank slate in every respect, I've realized that now's as good a time as any to make my fantasies a reality. I'm going to pursue the food banks dream first, then volunteer at Hope for Horses once I can drive. I am pumped!

Anybody ever build something like this from scratch before? Any ideas on how I should go about it? Feel free to stick it you know where!

[vegankitty]

Originally Posted by Kat

Especially if someone depended on a food bank for their food. Some food banks have points systems where you can "shop" and choose foods you like (according to certain limits: like you get 20 points to shop with, soup is one point, limit four soups). It might be possible to stick to vegan foods in such a food bank. But other (possibly most?) food banks pre-pack boxes of food and the client has no say in what they end up with.

Drop-in centres and soup kitchens don't usually have a wide variety of foods, and what is available is usually not vegan (although it may be possible to get vegetarian foods like macaroni and cheese, mashed potatos, vegetable medley, whatever. Lot of carbs, not a lot of protein or vitamins).

Most towns and cities don't have a Food Not Bombs chapter.

So, if someone were in a situation where foods from food banks and drop-in centres were their ONLY source of food, I can see why a person wouldn't be vegan. I've had some vegan/vegetarian friends who have found themselves in these situations, and all of them ended up eating meat eventually just so that they wouldn't have to be hungry all the time.

(I know a lot of times I see vegans on message boards being all noble and saying "I'd sooner die than eat meat!"....usually three days without food changes that outlook.)

I guess it depends on the city you live in , but I used to get most of my food from soup kitchens and food banks.The groceries were pre packaged , but I would trade meat items for other stuff.(There were always vienna sausages and they were a premium item to trade.I could usually get a second 1/2 gallon of juice.)I didn't know about Food not Bombs.They were not on the list of places that served meals handed out.I ate at the Hare Krishnas , though.I was vegetarian at the time though , not vegan.The place I got lunch M-F always had a vegetarian alternative.(Pasta w/tom sauce , bean chili).Even if I had known about FNB , they only serve two meals a week.I don't think vegan would have been possible , though.Or only if you also had food stamps (easy to get in NYC if you're homeless.)There was also a place that served really good , healthy veg(probably vegan) soup with homemade whole wheat bread.I managed to not eat meat the three years I depended on eating this way.(Of course , I was super skinny and using drugs so nutrition wasn't high on my list of priorities.)

[emzy1985]

Hmmm I might go into buisness making those cards and sell them! Would be a good idea you think?