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jenbizagogo
04-29-2003, 10:56 PM
The Glasgow Herald, UK -
Scientists net evidence that fish feel pain
Findings may influence new legislation
JAMES FREEMAN

A THORNY issue that has divided animal rights activists and anglers for
years may have finally been answered after scientists said they had proof
fish could feel pain.

Researchers at Edinburgh University and the Roslin Institute in Midlothian,
where Dolly the sheep was created, said they had found evidence that fish
had feelings, including stress and pain in the form of "trout trauma".

The study, published today by the Royal Society, used rainbow trout and
found that the fish's head not only had nervous system receptors that
responded to damaging stimuli but that the animal also showed "profound
behavioural and physiological changes comparable to those observed in higher
mammals" when short-acting noxious substances were applied.

Neural activity was recorded in prepared, anaesthetised fish while
mechanical, thermal, and chemical stimuli were applied to the head.

But the scientists said the presence of these receptors was not enough proof
on its own, as the fish's change in behaviour could be a simple mechanical
reflex response.

So the researchers, Dr Lynne Sneddon, Dr Victoria Braithwaite, and Dr
Michael Gentle, also studied the behavioural response to stimuli.

Bee venom or acetic acid was injected in the lips of some fish, while others
were injected with saline solution or merely handled to form control groups.

"Anomalous behaviours were exhibited by trout subjected to bee venom and
acetic acid," said Dr Sneddon, who led the research at the Roslin Institute
and is now working at the University of Liverpool.

"Fish demonstrated 'rocking' motion, strikingly similar to the kind of
motion seen in stressed higher vertebrates like mammals, and the trout
injected with acetic acid were also observed to rub their lips on to the
gravel in their tank and on the tank walls. These do not appear to be reflex
responses."


Causing suffering

She added: "It is nothing like our experience of pain but if it is causing
suffering to animals it is important that we minimise that. My definition is
to say that the animal has the neuro-apparatus to experience pain and its
behaviour responses are impaired during the event and these are not simply
reflexes. That fulfils the criteria for animal pain."

Dr Braithwaite, an Edinburgh University research scientist, who admitted she
ate fish, said: "Given our increasing reliance on aquaculture to produce the
fish we consume it was clear there would be questions raised sooner or later
about what capacity fish have for pain perception.

"We first asked whether they had pain-perceiving pathways, then whether they
reacted to noxious stimuli and whether this resultant behaviour was negative
and abnormal. Our research has shown that you can tick all three boxes."

The angling fraternity had not been in the forefront of her thinking at the
outset, Dr Braithwaite said, but the paper was a starting point for a whole
new debate that would map out the welfare requirements of fish given that
they had a capacity for pain perception.

"I hope this will generate interest from the Scottish Executive, animal
welfare people, the UK government and anglers. We know there are plans to
introduce fish welfare legislation. This gives everyone a chance to get it
right from the start," Dr Braithwaite said.

The findings were welcomed by animal rights organisation Peta (People for
the Ethical Treatment of Animals), but they said it was unfortunate that
fish had to suffer to show something that was obvious.

Dawn Carr, director of Peta (Europe), said: "It is certainly unfortunate
that these animals were made to suffer for this study, because we've been
saying for years that of course fish can suffer and feel pain.

"However, although we are not happy that the animals suffered for the study,
we hope that when people see these results, they will think twice about
going angling.

"Marine biologists and common sense tell us that if you trick a small animal
into impaling his or herself in the mouth, that animal is suffering."

The National Angling Alliance called the scientists' conclusions
"surprising".

A spokesman said: "These findings are in direct contrast to the recent work
of Professor James D Rose of the University of Wyoming, who stated in the
Reviews of Fisheries Science that fish do not possess the necessary and
specific regions of the brain to enable them to feel pain or fear."

Professor Rose wrote that reactions to injury were present in all forms of
animal life, but these did not mean that pain was experienced. Pain, he
said, was a psychological experience separated from "behavioural reactions
to injurious stimuli".


The case for
"People tend to think of fishing as a hobby, but it's not, it's a sport,"
said Bruce Sandison.
"With regard to whether fish feel pain, my understanding is that if they do,
it is of the lowest understandable, recognisable level so I don't feel too
bad about that.

"In any case, I go fishing to catch a fish, kill it, cook it, and eat it.
I'm not ashamed of that. People have been doing it for tens of thousands of
years.

"If I wasn't going to eat the fish, I wouldn't go fishing. I have no
interest in catching a fish and returning it to the water. For me it's
important the whole thing is complete.

"There have been several studies over the past 30 years addressing the issue
of whether fish feel pain, but I think it's a question of how you interpret
that.

"The studies I have read lead me to the conclusion that it is more likely
than not that fish do feel pain, but it is at an extraordinarily low level
and does not relate in any way to our understanding of the word.

"Anglers try to pretend in some way that fishing is not a blood sport, but
the bottom line is that it is. I fish, I catch, I kill, I eat, and that is
my whole rationale for going fishing."

Bruce Sandison is a writer, journalist, and angler from Sutherland who wrote
The Angler's Complete Guide and Rivers and Lochs of Scotland.


The case against
"While fishing may seem like fun to some people, it is important for us to
remember that on the other end of the line is a terrified animal struggling
for its life," said Dawn Carr.
"It is unfortunate that the animals used in this report were made to suffer,
but it points to what we have known for years - that fish suffer and feel
pain.

"For a long time now, anglers have been using the argument that fish can't
feel pain in a desperate attempt to justify their pastime, but these animals
are biting on hooks and being pulled out of their natural environments.

"How can that not cause pain?

"Even if the fish are released back into the water after being caught, we
know they are being forced to go through an unnecessarily cruel ordeal.
During that process, they are frightened and in pain.

"We also know that many fish which are thrown back do not survive as a
result of their injuries.

"Fish are not cute and cuddly and do not scream out in pain but they are
capable of fear and suffering. I certainly hope that when people are faced
with this reality, they would choose a different outdoor pursuit."

Dawn Carr is director of Peta (People for the Ethical Treatment of Animals)
Europe, part of the world's largest animal rights group.

Beanqueen
04-30-2003, 04:45 AM
I can't believe anyone could seriously argue that fish do not feel pain. I also can't believe these hideous experiments were carried out to prove what anyone with half a brain already knows.

madpogue
04-30-2003, 09:46 AM
Originally posted by jenbizagogo
She added: "It is nothing like our experience of pain but... And her basis of qualification for this is.....?

[Note: "you" in the following statements is meant in the abstract.] This is about as meaningful as saying "your experience of blue is nothing like my experience of blue". Does that make me the ultimate arbiter of what blue is, and justified in poking your eyes out? Or even in shoving things in your eyes in order to get even the faintest clue of how you experience blue?

Big Science frequently drags out such dismissive language to justify what they do. Even when they're acknowledging something that, as has been said, anyone with half a brain would already presume to be true, they have to couch it in these kind of terms to maintain their distance from the AR community.

penfold
04-30-2003, 10:25 AM
that line jumped out at me too, madpogue. she makes it it sounds like she's done experiments which show that the pain is different. i bet she hasn't. there's also talk of 'higher' mammals, something that people should instantly lose their science licences for.

i'm not sure she's 'Big Science', it sounds like quite an independent piece of research, giving a yes answer where most vested interests would want a 'no'.

it's sickening to think of anyone actually trying to cause pain to these poor fish. but considering that a whole lot of people really would deny that fish feel pain, it's not completely redundant to try to prove it, and something good may come of it for fish in the future.

herbi
04-30-2003, 05:37 PM
Umm... "DUH!"

Argh. I agree with all the posts above-- it seems so obvious that of COURSE fish (and I personally extend that to anything with a nervous system) feel pain! It's the most basic protective mechanism available to an animal! And I'm sure it's not like "our" pain, but, so what? And what does "low level" mean exactly? ARGH! The whole Mechanistic argument is exactly what DesCartes tried to say about dogs back in his day. Bleah!

In my field bio class we had to net and identify many species of freshwater fish, and I became annoyed at the number and duration of times the poor example fish were hauled out of the water and handled, obviously stressing them at the very least if not "frightening" them per se. I asked the instructor if, when it came time to identify mammals, we would be plunging them underwater in order to ID them, but he took the dark humor more as straight humor and less as the attempt to get people to back off without getting jumped on as a fish-loving freak that it actually was. Sigh.

VeganMegan
05-02-2003, 11:55 AM
Debate Continues on Whether Fish Feel Pain (http://www.seafood.com/news/current/96081.html)

SEAFOOD.COM NEWS [The Age] - May 2, 2003 - The RSPCA has backed the results of a British study that claims proof that fish feel pain, saying it vindicates their inclusion in recent animal-cruelty legislation. But anglers are not keen to hear about it.

...continued... (http://www.seafood.com/news/current/96081.html)


British Researchers Say Fish Feel Pain
VOA News
30 Apr 2003, 23:01 UTC


Researchers in Britain say they now have evidence that fish feel pain. (http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=D727C857-2E8D-4C82-B41D13AC4F8363CC#)

For years, the issue of fish feelings has been in dispute, with anglers and animal activists arguing about whether the sport of fishing was cruel.

Now a team from the Roslin Institute and the University of Edinburgh has found that fish have receptors in their heads, and subjecting them to noxious substances causes adverse behavioral and physiological changes.

...continued... (http://www.voanews.com/article.cfm?objectID=D727C857-2E8D-4C82-B41D13AC4F8363CC#)

San
05-02-2003, 02:13 PM
I used to fish when I was an omnivore. When I was little, I was taught fish don't have feeling in their lips. I guess that is a wives tale. This will be my first summer as a vegan, so it will be odd not fishing, because I used to never really think of it as cruel.

Lacykitten
05-02-2003, 04:29 PM
San - my friend Colleen has a vegetarian friend and they "go fishing" every summer at a lake..

Three people have goggles, snorkels, and nets, and one person has rocks.. people see a fish, the rock person bangs rocks to herd the fish, and they catch it in a net and then let it go.

Strange.. but way better than "catch and release" fishing for sure.. much less normal fishing..

Apparently one time one girl almost caught this giant trout with her bare hands..

Could be an alternative.. pet the fishies instead of hook them?

San
05-02-2003, 04:51 PM
Hahah. I used to net fish when I would snorkle. They would practically swim right into it. Mostly to show off to the cute guys. They were suckerfish, so they didn't get much petting from me. I stayed far away from that suction cup mouth.

vegancherrypie
05-03-2003, 11:48 AM
Originally posted by Lacykitten
Could be an alternative.. pet the fishies instead of hook them?

Wait...you weren't serious, were you?...you know touching a fish rubs the protective enzyme off their scales, right, plus causes who knows how much trauma?..

Cassie

purplemackerel
05-03-2003, 12:51 PM
I'm hurt...I can't believe anyone would even suggest we fish don't...I feel for all my fish relations involved in that horrific "fish feel pain" research... :bawling: :furious:

herbi
05-03-2003, 03:56 PM
AHA! I knew I had seen this story somewhere, for some reason overlooked the original thread yesterday when I was looking. OK, now I've got it. Ready...?
*MERGE!*

Vulpyne
05-05-2003, 06:32 PM
Hi,
Here's something interesting I found today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C2-667005%2C00.html

I'm pretty amazed, since it sounds like they're kind-of
trying to do the right thing on their own.
-Vulpyne

Lacykitten
05-05-2003, 08:03 PM
Originally posted by vegancherrypie
Wait...you weren't serious, were you?...you know touching a fish rubs the protective enzyme off their scales, right, plus causes who knows how much trauma?..

Cassie

I'm sure trauma would be involved in netting a fish, even briefly, but I'd much prefer that over actual fishing, if people feel they need to do that.

I don't know about the rubbing off of protective enzymes, but I DO know that I have had fish that LOVED to be petted, and know of others who do as well. If it were overly dangerous to their well-being they would likely have high instincts to avoid being touched, rather than enjoying it. I've also gone swimming in lakes where fish often brush against my skin. How is that, or them brushing up against anything any different than petting them?

Fish enjoy playing, too, from what I've noticed. The fish in the lake might actually see it as a game. Who knows? Certainly none of us *shrug* I mean it's hardly as if they can't escape the game that the people play, either. It's much easier for a fish to swim between people and not get caught, than it is for them to catch one in a net. And if they would rather do that than fish - I'm all for it. At least no one's getting hurt or killed.

Lacykitten
05-05-2003, 08:05 PM
Originally posted by Vulpyne
Hi,
Here's something interesting I found today:
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0%2C%2C2-667005%2C00.html

I'm pretty amazed, since it sounds like they're kind-of
trying to do the right thing on their own.
-Vulpyne

Well I think that's a LOT better than suffocating.. at least in theory. A quick death is better than a slow one.. It's a start, at least the people care and are all "We have to do something about this!" which is good.