Legit objections to Veganism

[schmeel]

This (http://www.veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6855) thread about dumb arguments against veganism, and this (http://www.veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=6868) thread about the anti vegan sermon on the joke site www.landoverbaptist.org got me wondering...

Are there actual legit arguments against Veganism? I googled around for a little bit trying to find anti-vegan sites, but the best thing I could find were college students claiming veganism was a drain on our economy...but that was it.

If there aren't any good arguments against veganism, why aren't there more of us?

[Mason]

If there aren't any good arguments against veganism, why aren't there more of us?Cognitive dissonance.

[bird]

I googled around for a little bit trying to find anti-vegan sites, but the best thing I could find were college students claiming veganism was a drain on our economy...but that was it.I don't understand that. There are tons of vegan entrepreneurs and vegan small businesses that have sprung up to meet our specific needs. And the purchasing patterns of most vegans often correlates positively with higher price goods - we pay a premium for things that are fair trade, fair labor, organic, and non-GMO. Sometimes intentionally vegan items such as shoes and bags are even more expensive than their animal-product counterparts. There is definitely an argument to be made for veganism stimulating the economy.

[schmeel]

The argument about the economy was pretty weak, but it basically complained that Vegansim takes away from the meat and dairy economies. I'm not saying it's a good argument. I'm much happier supporting an economy based on the value of life and kind treatment of animals rather than an economy based on the torture, slavery and death of animals...but that argument was the best thing I could find.

:p

[Hippopotamine]

I don't understand that. There are tons of vegan entrepreneurs and vegan small businesses that have sprung up to meet our specific needs. And the purchasing patterns of most vegans often correlates positively with higher price goods - we pay a premium for things that are fair trade, fair labor, organic, and non-GMO. Sometimes intentionally vegan items such as shoes and bags are even more expensive than their animal-product counterparts. There is definitely an argument to be made for veganism stimulating the economy.

I agree with you. I think when people claim veganism is bad for the economy they are just not thinking. I've actally heard the argument that veganism would be horrible for the environment because "think of how many more crops we'd have to grow, and all the forests that would have to be cut down to make room for the crops, and all the extra water we'd need for the crops..." Of course, they have it all backwards because they aren't considering what it currently takes to feed all the animals people eat.

[bird]

The argument about the economy was pretty weak, but it basically complained that Vegansim takes away from the meat and dairy economies.What those people don't realize is that a lot of the brands vegans buy, like Lightlife and Silk, are owned by meat and dairy companies anyway. We may buy vegan groceries at Whole Foods, for example, but that's still a store that sells meat, fish, and dairy. Nevertheless, the chain still profits from our purchases there. Same thing with eating veggie at omni restaurants.

It's not as if vegans drop out of the omni economy. At this point that's not a practical or viable option for most of us. And not all vegans even want to exclusively patronize vegan businesses.

[attackferret]

Veganism, when you don't have the time/inclination to cook, can be a lot more expensive than vegetarianism (I can't compare against an omni diet, I didn't buy food then). It takes more effort. Eating out can be annoying if omni friends want to go somewhere like applebees. If someone doesn't feel strongly about the issues (indeed, if they don't really care at all), the extra money and/or effort required to be vegan may not seem worth it.

ETA: the above isn't an argument against veganism, more just one of many answers to the question of why there aren't more vegans.

[bird]

If someone were living in an economically depressed area, with poor to no public transportation and greengrocers, then I can definitely see how veganism could be far from that person's mind. It's so sad how cheap meat is, period, but especially when compared to the price of fresh vegetables (never mind organic/locally grown/non-GE/seasonality concerns). If someone were in such a situation, they might very well feel that they have bigger problems to worry about than animal cruelty.

[Kat]

If someone were in such a situation, they might very well feel that they have bigger problems to worry about than animal cruelty.

Especially if someone depended on a food bank for their food. Some food banks have points systems where you can "shop" and choose foods you like (according to certain limits: like you get 20 points to shop with, soup is one point, limit four soups). It might be possible to stick to vegan foods in such a food bank. But other (possibly most?) food banks pre-pack boxes of food and the client has no say in what they end up with.

Drop-in centres and soup kitchens don't usually have a wide variety of foods, and what is available is usually not vegan (although it may be possible to get vegetarian foods like macaroni and cheese, mashed potatos, vegetable medley, whatever. Lot of carbs, not a lot of protein or vitamins).

Most towns and cities don't have a Food Not Bombs chapter.

So, if someone were in a situation where foods from food banks and drop-in centres were their ONLY source of food, I can see why a person wouldn't be vegan. I've had some vegan/vegetarian friends who have found themselves in these situations, and all of them ended up eating meat eventually just so that they wouldn't have to be hungry all the time.

(I know a lot of times I see vegans on message boards being all noble and saying "I'd sooner die than eat meat!"....usually three days without food changes that outlook.)

[bird]

Especially if someone depended on a food bank for their food. Some food banks have points systems where you can "shop" and choose foods you like (according to certain limits: like you get 20 points to shop with, soup is one point, limit four soups). It might be possible to stick to vegan foods in such a food bank. But other (possibly most?) food banks pre-pack boxes of food and the client has no say in what they end up with.

Drop-in centres and soup kitchens don't usually have a wide variety of foods, and what is available is usually not vegan (although it may be possible to get vegetarian foods like macaroni and cheese, mashed potatos, vegetable medley, whatever. Lot of carbs, not a lot of protein or vitamins).

Most towns and cities don't have a Food Not Bombs chapter.

So, if someone were in a situation where foods from food banks and drop-in centres were their ONLY source of food, I can see why a person wouldn't be vegan. I've had some vegan/vegetarian friends who have found themselves in these situations, and all of them ended up eating meat eventually just so that they wouldn't have to be hungry all the time.

(I know a lot of times I see vegans on message boards being all noble and saying "I'd sooner die than eat meat!"....usually three days without food changes that outlook.)That's true. You know how a lot of vegans say that they dream of opening an animal sanctuary or a vegan café/restaurant? For a while now, my fantasy has been to start some vegan food banks. I would also love to run a horse rehabilitation sanctuary, though. :smitten: ;)

[askwhy]

When determining why someone is vegan, what are the typicaly reasons?

1) Health?
2) Treatment of Animals?
3) Get Laid (Social Reasons)?

Let's take each scenario.

1) Health

Being vegan does not automatically make you healthy. You can still eat all the refined sugar and potato chips you want. Additionally, are there no healthy omnivores? Of course there are.

How much "meat" is too much? Is one egg a week unhealthy? Two eggs a week?

2) Treatment of Animals

Probably the most compelling reason is the treatment of animals, which is the reason I went vegetarian. However, by being vegan/vegetarian you remove yourself from the concerns of the meat and dairy producers. You are beyond any efforts they could possibly make to switch you back to eating meat. Thus, you are of no concern to them.

However, if you are a conscious meat and dairy consumer, you can use your dollars to put pressure on meat and dairy producers to treat animals as "fair" as possible. You have some voting power by only buying meat and dairy from "humane" providers.

However you must accept the idea that meat and dairy consumption is here to stay. But you say nay! "If enough people went vegan we could put the producers out of business!" Beyond being unrealistic, this brings forth another interesting aspect of vegan/vegetarianism, and that is its "elite/cult" factor.

Interestingly enough none of my vegan or vegetarian friends really talk about being vegan or vegetarian to other NON-vegan/vegetarian people. It consumes nearly all their life, but they apparently don't want to bother or educate omnivores unless prompted. This has a backwards effect. If you're so passionate about the treatment of animals, wouldn't you be promoting veganism/vegetarianism? Wouldn't you be driving out to meat and dairy farms and staging protests? Boycotting steak houses and forming picket lines?

(Begin Devils Advocate)
Is a Nazi any less of a Nazi if he knows that people are being killed in concentration camps, but decides not to participate in that aspect of the cause?

At least those Nazi's who were conscious AND played a role in the concentration camps could do *something* to help the victims.
(End Devils Advocate)

3) Get Laid (Social Reasons)

Let's face it, some people go vegan/vegetarian because that hot guy or girl is vegan and he/she wants to get in their pants. I'm not saying this is true of everyone, but it certainly is true for some.

Additionally, they think all the vegan kids are cool and want to be a part of the crowd. In my experience, the crowd, is composed of a group of self-righteous people who form a sort of elite/closed group. Which is interesting and antithetical to promoting vegan/vegatarianism.

You can't have a "cool" underground trend that you want to keep cool and secret AND make a difference. Ever known someone to really like a band until they got popular?

--

Anyhow, those are some of the more compelling arguments I've heard. Your thoughts?

[gypsy2vegan]

Interestingly enough none of my vegan or vegetarian friends really talk about being vegan or vegetarian to other NON-vegan/vegetarian people. It consumes nearly all their life, but they apparently don't want to bother or educate omnivores unless prompted. This has a backwards effect. If you're so passionate about the treatment of animals, wouldn't you be promoting veganism/vegetarianism?

Personally i see myself as a vegan ambasador to the omni. world. everywhere i go i make my vegan choices quietly and respectfully, until someone notices and inevitably starts asking questions. I try to respectfully and openly answer their (often rediculous) questions, unless the questions are pointedly disrespectful, in which case i respond:

"do you really want to know or are you just trying to mock me"

I found this response fully humiliates the asker when spoken in a crowd, without really saying anything offensive.

I am always on the road and therefore usually the only vegan around (often the only vegan my new friends have ever met.) I think its very important to share my vegan stance with anyone who wants to know in language that will not be offensive to them. I think it is equally important not to force graphic stories of torture or politics on people, because most people have this stereotype of the beligerant crazy vegan and i am out to soften the average stranger to vegans first and maybe then they will listen to what we have to say.

[gypsy2vegan]

As for legit objections to veganism,
i dont think there are any.
I dont think thats the point.

I dont think the average omni. is sitting at home coming up with excuses to eat meat. they dont have to. those excuses are built into our american social structure.

When people argue with us about our vegan choices i dont think the arguement is about food or health, it is about the way we are shaking the foundations of their lives. things they thought were fact, upon which they have based their existance that we casually thumb our noses at.

[mountainvegan]

I have heard many attempts at legit arguments against veganism, but all of them fail, usually miserably.

The fact that an omni diet light on the meat and dairy is healthy is not an objection to veganism unless the health reason is your only reason for being vegan.

Vegans can influence the meat and dairy industry just as much or more than omnis by educating the public about factory farming cruelty, and most vegans do, in one way or another (e.g., letters to the editor, pamphleting, leading by example).

[Kat]

For a while now, my fantasy has been to start some vegan food banks.

I think that's an awesome idea :) Or, in lieu of that, donating vegan foods to the food bank (or soup kitchen, drop in centre, homeless shelter, women's shelter, youth shelter, etc etc).

One thing I'd like to do, if I ever had the money, would be to "sponser" a veg*n youth at the youth shelter. I'd ask the shelter to give me a call if they were ever in need of meals for a veg*n youth, and if that ever happened, I could buy and donate foods to the shelter such as hummus, clif bars, veggie burgers, etc, so that there would be a veg option available for the youth.

But, I'm broke. That idea will have to sit on the back burner for awhile.

[theveganmary]

I dont think the average omni. is sitting at home coming up with excuses to eat meat. they dont have to. those excuses are built into our american social structure.

When people argue with us about our vegan choices i dont think the arguement is about food or health, it is about the way we are shaking the foundations of their lives. things they thought were fact, upon which they have based their existance that we casually thumb our noses at.

I think you've got it exactly right.

[matriarco]

This is pretty philosophically difficult, I think, since many or most of us are vegan because we think it's the right thing to do and thus wouldn't necessarily think it's legitimate not to be. How are you defining "legitimate?"

Here's the dictionary definition that I think most fits what you mean:


"Based on logical reasoning; reasonable: a legitimate solution to the problem."

I didn't become vegan for reasons based on logic, necessarily, but I have stayed so because I've found no argument against it that holds up to logical reasoning. So I guess that means that I don't think there are any legitimate arguments against veganism.

"Reasonable" is much more subjective, though. I might allow that some arguments are "reasonable" given the circumstances, even if I think they're still ultimately "wrong." Though I can't think of any examples of that right now, either.

[bird]

I didn't become vegan for reasons based on logic, necessarily, but I have stayed so because I've found no argument against it that holds up to logical reasoning. So I guess that means that I don't think there are any legitimate arguments against veganism.Right. :) I think it's the same thing to say that if there's no logical reason not to be or do something, then one logically should be or do it, if one is a rational and responsible person. Otherwise the contradiction and cognitive dissonance come in, e.g. "Animals don't volunteer to die for my benefit" ought to follow, logically, from "I care about animals". "I should be vegan" would then be the logical result of "Animals don't volunteer to die for my benefit".

[Vegan_Kisses]

I am actively trying to mold the future for my children. I want to be part of the solution and not a lemming who does things because its cool or socially acceptable. I have lost a lot of friends because I care about the world, racial and sexual equality and animal rights. They are all linked together with two contributing factors and that's compassion and kindness. I am good friends with a gentleman that was a Black Panther in the 60s and he says the only thing that has changed in racism is it is more covert then it used to be. We need to be more caring collectively or we will surely be doomed to a hateful fate. Americans are becoming more subserviant to big corporations and Marketing is the tool it uses to seduce the masses. People are forgetting to be who they are because they are told from birth who they should be. I became a Vegan because I wanted to show my children how to really love animals and not just "care about" them. I am compassionate to all life, not just humans, not just "whites" and not just men.

[rupafree]

"do you really want to know or are you just trying to mock me"

like this - cheers

[bird]

You know how a lot of vegans say that they dream of opening an animal sanctuary or a vegan café/restaurant? For a while now, my fantasy has been to start some vegan food banks. I would also love to run a horse rehabilitation sanctuary, though. :smitten: ;)Remember this? :) Since I've got a blank slate in every respect, I've realized that now's as good a time as any to make my fantasies a reality. I'm going to pursue the food banks dream first, then volunteer at Hope for Horses (http://www.hopeforhorses.net/) once I can drive. I am pumped!

Anybody ever build something like this from scratch before? Any ideas on how I should go about it? Feel free to stick it you know where (http://www.veganrepresent.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7116)! :p

[rantingsteve]

I am actively trying to mold the future for my children. I want to be part of the solution and not a lemming who does things because its cool or socially acceptable. I have lost a lot of friends because I care about the world, racial and sexual equality and animal rights. They are all linked together with two contributing factors and that's compassion and kindness. I am good friends with a gentleman that was a Black Panther in the 60s and he says the only thing that has changed in racism is it is more covert then it used to be. We need to be more caring collectively or we will surely be doomed to a hateful fate. Americans are becoming more subserviant to big corporations and Marketing is the tool it uses to seduce the masses. People are forgetting to be who they are because they are told from birth who they should be. I became a Vegan because I wanted to show my children how to really love animals and not just "care about" them. I am compassionate to all life, not just humans, not just "whites" and not just men.
Beautifully said! :)

[KKB]

Beautifully said! :)
agreed!!!
and vegankisses, let me just add that I LOVE your sig :D (I may snag it)

[emzy1985]

I am actively trying to mold the future for my children. I want to be part of the solution and not a lemming who does things because its cool or socially acceptable. I have lost a lot of friends because I care about the world, racial and sexual equality and animal rights. They are all linked together with two contributing factors and that's compassion and kindness. I am good friends with a gentleman that was a Black Panther in the 60s and he says the only thing that has changed in racism is it is more covert then it used to be. We need to be more caring collectively or we will surely be doomed to a hateful fate. Americans are becoming more subserviant to big corporations and Marketing is the tool it uses to seduce the masses. People are forgetting to be who they are because they are told from birth who they should be. I became a Vegan because I wanted to show my children how to really love animals and not just "care about" them. I am compassionate to all life, not just humans, not just "whites" and not just men.

That just says it all!

[LuC]

Very well said Vegan Kisses. I think we should all strive to be that human being.

[Vegit-8]

Somehow I missed Vegan_Kisses post. It is well written and I embrace her words of intention with all my heart.

May peace and joy be with you.
Vegit-8

[panthera]

vegan food banks: get Peta or some other bigger org to fund it. Or find another small org that did the same thing & get advice. Actually, HSUS would be a good org to hit b/c there is now a vegan core to it, which there wasn't before. They would have in place more of the disaster rescue infrastructure & knowhow, and now that there is a vegan heading the organization, they will be more aware of how important vegan outreach is. Maybe also Vegan Outreach might have ideas.

Often, the key seems to be finding another veg*n who is in a position of power somehow.

There should be a way to appeal to the religious charities through the "promote peace, compassion, non-violence, don't-cause-heartache-to-Jesus" angle. Something I want to investigate further. As well as the "lower-health-costs-for-the-poor" angle, public health services angle.

ASKWHY, I want to respond to your post later, but for now I'll say that perhaps the vegetarians you know who seem not to talk about it, have had such a rough time being stigmatized as belligerent and tiresome, that they have given up.

Are you sure you know vegans who do not talk about their veganism? I have only met one; all the others are ALWAYS looking for ways to spread veganism.

[panthera]

COK Marketplace (http://www.cok.net/market/)

Restaurant Manager Cards
http://www.cok.net/images/merch/card-rest-front.png
http://www.cok.net/images/merch/card-rest-back.png
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Individual rate: $1 shipping and handling per batch of 20 cards
Free: Your first ten cards are free.

Sorry they're not UK, but I'm sure they wouldn't mind if you make your own. They're concentrating on getting the message out, so much of their outreach uses stuff that is to be freely distributed, if necessary. The quality is always top-notch, and I'm sure their budget is very tightly run, but if it means the difference between the message getting out or not getting out, they want it out.

[vegankitty]

Especially if someone depended on a food bank for their food. Some food banks have points systems where you can "shop" and choose foods you like (according to certain limits: like you get 20 points to shop with, soup is one point, limit four soups). It might be possible to stick to vegan foods in such a food bank. But other (possibly most?) food banks pre-pack boxes of food and the client has no say in what they end up with.

Drop-in centres and soup kitchens don't usually have a wide variety of foods, and what is available is usually not vegan (although it may be possible to get vegetarian foods like macaroni and cheese, mashed potatos, vegetable medley, whatever. Lot of carbs, not a lot of protein or vitamins).

Most towns and cities don't have a Food Not Bombs chapter.

So, if someone were in a situation where foods from food banks and drop-in centres were their ONLY source of food, I can see why a person wouldn't be vegan. I've had some vegan/vegetarian friends who have found themselves in these situations, and all of them ended up eating meat eventually just so that they wouldn't have to be hungry all the time.

(I know a lot of times I see vegans on message boards being all noble and saying "I'd sooner die than eat meat!"....usually three days without food changes that outlook.)
I guess it depends on the city you live in , but I used to get most of my food from soup kitchens and food banks.The groceries were pre packaged , but I would trade meat items for other stuff.(There were always vienna sausages and they were a premium item to trade.I could usually get a second 1/2 gallon of juice.)I didn't know about Food not Bombs.They were not on the list of places that served meals handed out.I ate at the Hare Krishnas , though.I was vegetarian at the time though , not vegan.The place I got lunch M-F always had a vegetarian alternative.(Pasta w/tom sauce , bean chili).Even if I had known about FNB , they only serve two meals a week.I don't think vegan would have been possible , though.Or only if you also had food stamps (easy to get in NYC if you're homeless.)There was also a place that served really good , healthy veg(probably vegan) soup with homemade whole wheat bread.I managed to not eat meat the three years I depended on eating this way.(Of course , I was super skinny and using drugs so nutrition wasn't high on my list of priorities.)

[emzy1985]

Hmmm I might go into buisness making those cards and sell them! Would be a good idea you think?

[Shion]

A lot of the reasons I hear are disease related. Such as diabetes and Irritable Bowel Syndrome, that a vegan diet isn't possible.

The others are merely convenience issues, which I can understand to some degree. Being interrogated during mealtime can get pretty old pretty fast, but most people don't choose to be vegan because it is convenient.