Vegan Partners

[VeganArtist]

Very well put! And congrats, it sounds like you are very happy! :happy:Thanks! :happy:

[steroidicalkiwi]

my boy is a recently-turned vegetarian! :love: i could care less whether he was or not though.

[koren]

i'd 'date' an omni, first date...movie night..peacable kingdom :cry: ....if theres not water works he'd be gone. i find that most people are just uneducated as most of you have already said on here, so i'd only be willing to date an omni if they were open minded and willing to live a new lifestyle...

i wonder if a good vegan pickup line would include "honey, ive got all the meat on me you'll ever need"....if i'm ever single again..i'll have to try it! :D

[Tiggerwoos]

ROFL at Koren's pick up line!

My bf is 100% vegan at home, but a veggie for now........ Maybe one day he will change, but he turned veggie when I went veggie, then when I went vegan, he stopped eating dairy at home and has cut down the majority of dairy eating at home.

[Shion]

My husband is veg, but he eats vegan food without complaint. If he wants dairy crap he will buy it for himself and put it in the fridge, so I don't have to. If I were to date again, I probably would favor vegans over non-vegans.

[kaylie likes plurr]

my boy is an omni-
i dont exactly wnat to starty a new relationship - ever
but if it were ever to happen they would have to be at LEAST vegetarian i think.

[topperarnold]

My husband is not vegan, BUT he completely respects my choice and gladly given up foods if they are not vegan. He understands that I don't even want to buy a product if it's not vegan. For example: the other day we were at the stupidmarket and he wanted to get some Gardenburger meatballs. I read the ingredients and found eggs and parmesan cheese. He was perfectly fine with not getting them. He eats very little meat and that he does elsewhere (not at home, we don't keep it at home.) In the 16 years we've been together, he's gone from being an almost total carnivore (seriously, he used to eat very few veggies) to just eating a turkey sandwich for lunch during the week...the rest of his meals vegetarian. I know, not vegan..but I like to think he's really turned his eating habits around....considering his "grill meat every night" upbringing.

In fact, just yesterday he said he wants to give the Tofurky roast a try this Chanumas season (I'm Jewish, he's not.) :D

sorry to ramble.

[channelz]

lucky for me veganism, or lack of, wasn't a deal breaker for my boy, as he converted me :). i could see myself dating a vegetarian, or even an omni, if they were respectful of my choices. and then i'll convert them like boyz converted me! (or at least try very very hard)

[kaylie likes plurr]

topper arnold that's awesome!!! i'm totally jealous

[Oatmeal Girl]

I am dating someone new, and since meeting me he's become vegetarian/working-on-vegan. It's really nice. :)

[kaylie likes plurr]

awe thats awesome oatmeal girl! i'm so jealous!

[vegematic]

Cool!

[Oatmeal Girl]

Thanks! I'm really excited about it. He does a lot of research on his own time, and he cooks vegan food with me. It seems like he's really happy with himself for making the change!

[AhimsaBland]

I'd have a hard time dating somebody that wasn't vegan, and if they were vegetarian(at least), I'd do my best to push them into veganism(without being an ass). I'm just generally picky with dating girls and their morals, but this has become more important than most of those other pointless things

[kaylie likes plurr]

yeah I totally understand.
I guess now after dating an omni for a year, I could SOOO settle for just a vegetarian. Though when I really think about it, I feel like I want the person I date to be vegan, because I mean, supporting the dairy, is supporting the meat industry...

but for him it'd be a big step

[mishka]

I am with someone who was omni for the first year and a half we were together. He said things like "I could never become vegetarian" and "I love chicken". I still loved him, and dealt with the meat-eating. Then, on his own, he decided to stop eating meat. I asked if it was for the animals or for me – he said "Little of column A, little of column B" :)

I didn't pressure him – I requested that when we moved in together, our home be meat and egg free. I cooked him awesome vegan food (he sometimes added cheese afterwards) and he says that helped make it easier for him. He's not vegan, and I'm not sure he'll ever be fully there, but he does make a conscious effort to cut down on cheese and eggs. Now when I ask his reasons, he says it's mostly for health and the environment. He's done some reading and came into this mostly on his own, which I think is far more important.

So, it can happen. The problem is that it's hard to tell who will become veg and who won't. If you love the person, I believe their being omni doesn't have to be a deal breaker. People are complex – they do and believe lots of different things. There are lots of things to love and dislike about a person. If you find someone you love, they are worth exploring. You only live one life, and wouldn't it be sad if you could have had a great relationship with someone but let it get away?

[shananigans]

So, it can happen. The problem is that it's hard to tell who will become veg and who won't. If you love the person, I believe their being omni doesn't have to be a deal breaker. People are complex – they do and believe lots of different things. There are lots of things to love and dislike about a person. If you find someone you love, they are worth exploring. You only live one life, and wouldn't it be sad if you could have had a great relationship with someone but let it get away?

:yes:

[VegeTexan]

You only live one life

Didn't either of you see the Bond movie You Only Live Twice?

And
Omni is a deal breaker. I could love lots of things about a woman, but I wouldn't explore her if she wasn't at least open to veganism.
.............

You Only Live Twice or so it seems,
One life for yourself and one for your dreams.
You drift through the years and life seems tame,
Till one dream appears and love is its name.

And love is a stranger who'll beckon you on,
Don't think of the danger or the stranger is gone.

This dream is for you, so pay the price.
Make one dream come true, you only live twice.

[mishka]

For sure, VT. I totally respect that :) For a lot of vegans, it's a deal breaker. But there are a lot of vegans out there who feel they should feel that way. Like they're doing a disservice to veganism by accepting their current omni partners. I just want to show some love to those vegans, too. If they truly love a person who happens to be omni, they shouldn't feel badly about it. Life is complicated. Love who you love and embrace it :)

[nauthiz]

Love who you love and embrace it :)
:smitten:

[stegan]

Life is complicated. Love who you love and embrace it :)
:yes:

[nauthiz]

On a side note, is there a VBulletin mod that allows people to change their vote in polls? I originally voted "free and single at the moment but they would have to be vegan", but now the answer is "no."

[phloxy]

at least open to veganism.

I agree VegeTexan, and what is frustrating is that a lot of people will talk the talk about being open but even years down the road will stubbornly hold onto their old habits even in the face of the facts. After my last relationship with an omni turned veg, I learned that for whatever reason, I am not the kind of person who can keep things kindled with a nonvegan.

I think it's because I have been there and made the transformation. I went from omni to vegetarian to vegan after people explained to me what happened to animals in our agricultural system and I did further research. I made the choice to give up "foods" that I loved the taste of because they came to represent suffering to me. I was open to making a personal change and taking responsibility for my contribution to the problem. Knowledge demanded action, and, like many here, I did not shrink from that.

So I grow weary of waiting after years go by and the change does not happen. I think, "I could do it, so why can't you, especially when you say you are open to it?" For me, becoming a vegetarian was just the beginning. For this partner I refer to, going vegetarian was "enough."

Apparently a lot of my attraction to a person is wrapped up in his willingness to know and act on what he learns about injustice. I can't accept it when people say "Oh, that's so terrible!" and then keep on doing what they are doing, ignoring their part in the problem. Of course people have to change as they can, which may mean not going as far as they always could, but for an intimate partner, I need something more if love is going to blossom. These things become emotional issues.

If I'm going to build a life, be vulnerable, and share everything about myself with another human being, there has to be like-mindedness about the action that knowledge demands. The last time around, I felt that I was being very patient for my partner to come around, knowing that I had once been in his shoes. After a while, though, it became apparent that it was not going to happen, and I just couldn't continue to kiss that dairy mouth knowing that deep down I wanted--needed--to be kissing a vegan one.

So it didn't work out, mostly because of me, I guess (there were a few other things going on). And I think wouldn't try it again because I just can't compromise on these points fairly and without it interfering with my emotional feelings. Maybe I'm an unreasonable person. But I think it's just because I'm older and getting set in my ways.

[gladcow]

I was the omni asshole when I first started dating my husband. He had been raised Seventh-Day Adventist and had been vegetarian until he was about 12. He has never had pork or shellfish. At the time we met, we were both omnis, but only I ate pork and shellfish. He hated it when I would eat bacon. He didn't like to kiss me afterwards. I felt like he was being a baby about it. I'd eat bacon and then tease him that he wouldn't kiss me. I was horrible. He never pushed me to stop eating bacon, he just was clear about what made him uncomfortable. We got over it. Years later, I decided to go vegan. He went along without comment or discussion. I felt lucky that he had a veg background and that I didn't have to convince him. In fact, for years I felt like veganism wasn't his thing, he just went along with me. I know now that that is not the case, veganism is very close to his heart. But at the time, that is how I felt. And, I really didn't deserve that kind of open-heartedness. I was a jerk to him about my bacon-eating ways. I was not interested in adjusting my eating habits to make him comfortable. And now? We've both been vegan for almost 8 years. And I thank my lucky stars for him everyday. So, that's my two cents on falling in love with omnis. It can work out.

[bumblebee]

What I don't get is that some vegans can so easily distinguish between a meat-eating partner and a partner who engages in another immoral activity.

Is it because, "I used to be a purse snatcher, so how can I condemn purse snatchers?"

Or, "Being vegan is great, but I can't expect that sort of greatness from everyone?"

Or, "I ate meat and so I can never really get how horrible that truly was - or I'd have to blow my brains out."

I mean, how does it not matter to you? How is it different than another behavior your SO engages in that hurts others?

[bumblebee]

Love who you love? What if you love Hitler?

[gladcow]

I think the difference is that many omnis don't know that it is wrong. And, once they hear about the atrocities that are done to animals, they have to then figure out what to do and what they think. It's not inherent. I mean, when you ate meat, you didn't think it was wrong, right? You came to that conclusion through your own thoughts and layers of paint. What if you had an SO pushing you, threatening to break up with you, likening you to a purse-snatcher? Would that make you more likely to change?

[bumblebee]

I was the omni asshole when I first started dating my husband. He had been raised Seventh-Day Adventist and had been vegetarian until he was about 12. He has never had pork or shellfish. At the time we met, we were both omnis, but only I ate pork and shellfish. He hated it when I would eat bacon. He didn't like to kiss me afterwards. I felt like he was being a baby about it. I'd eat bacon and then tease him that he wouldn't kiss me. I was horrible. He never pushed me to stop eating bacon, he just was clear about what made him uncomfortable. We got over it. Years later, I decided to go vegan. He went along without comment or discussion. I felt lucky that he had a veg background and that I didn't have to convince him. In fact, for years I felt like veganism wasn't his thing, he just went along with me. I know now that that is not the case, veganism is very close to his heart. But at the time, that is how I felt. And, I really didn't deserve that kind of open-heartedness. I was a jerk to him about my bacon-eating ways. I was not interested in adjusting my eating habits to make him comfortable. And now? We've both been vegan for almost 8 years. And I thank my lucky stars for him everyday. So, that's my two cents on falling in love with omnis. It can work out.

It's unbelievable to me that someone could start eating meat at that age. Robert is 12. He would never in a million years eat meat. If I presented him with meat, I have a pretty good idea what he might say to me. :laugh:

[mishka]

What if you love Hitler?
I wish I was better at formulating my thoughts and arguments, because this really offends me in a few different ways. If I can gather my thoughts in a constructive way, I'll post back.

[gladcow]

It's unbelievable to me that someone could start eating meat at that age. Robert is 12. He would never in a million years eat meat. If I presented him with meat, I have a pretty good idea what he might say to me. :laugh:

well, when you're not raised as an ethical vegan then you don't really have the same sort of result, you know. he was taught that meat was unhealthy. he was not taught that animals should have rights. he was raised on a dairy. I think a lot of vegetarian children end up experimenting at some point or another, and if you don't expect that then you may be in for a surprise. I find it sort of offensive that you're condescending about choices my husband made over 20 years ago, when he was 12 :blank: :umm:

I don't think my children will ever eat meat, but I also know that it's their choice to make. Just as not eating meat is my choice.

[gladcow]

Love who you love? What if you love Hitler?

I'm guessing if one loves Hitler, then one would be quite disappointed to know he's dead and no longer able to be in a relationship. also, if one loves someone who is as hateful as Hitler, perhaps they are hateful themselves? however, I have a hard time believing that a vegan who loves an omni is hateful in any way.

also (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law)

[bumblebee]

I'm married to a Jew, who is not offended by the comparison of what animals go through every day, to the holocaust. He says, "It's a very good analogy."

Everyone is offended by something, though. My point was, how is being omni different than (pick any act that you personally find immoral) when it comes to finding love?

gladcow, Eating meat always broke my heart. I remember feeling guilt at age 4. If I'd had someone say anything to me negatively about eating meat, I believe I would have jumped at vegetarianism.

When I finally found the confidence to go vegetarian on my own, I was pretty matter of fact about it with my husband, in that our house and kids were going to be vegetarian, too. He didn't argue, which was a good thing. He was really perfect about it and very patient with my new, bland cooking. But, it was the right thing to do, and it saved our marriage.

[gladcow]

I don't really have a problem with the holocaust analogy. I have a problem with using Hitler in this issue. It doesn't really apply.

Sure, I'm offended by all kinds of stuff. I'm offended by some things people I love think and do. But that doesn't change that I love them. I look more at how they treat me when I think about my feelings for them. Granted, I couldn't be with someone who didn't respect my beliefs. But, I wouldn't want to be with someone who just went along with me all the time. I want my partner's choices to be his, just as I want mine to be mine.

I think that since you were vegetarian minded from a young age, you are not seeing the myriad of journeys that bring people (like me) to veg*nism. If we hold omnis at arms length, how can they know to change? :confused:

I'm glad your husband was so willing, I know it goes a long way towards a happy union.

[Ariann]

I'm not offended by the Holocaust analogy, either, and I lost most of my family in the Holocaust. However, on a certain level animals are never going to morally equivalent to humans to me and I can understand and empathize with people's belief that animals exist for our use and not for their own purposes (which I could not empathize with if someone said it about humans). As an example of their moral difference, I think euthanizing a "pet" is morally okay, but euthanizing a human is not. So my husband eating meat outside the home (so rarely) doesn't strike me as equivalent in offensiveness to him going around and snatching purses or punching people out on the street. In some system they might be morally equivalent, maybe even if I thought about it long enough they'd become morally equivalent in my own system, but they're not in his and it's something I can understand. If I couldn't deal with that I couldn't have any relationship with my family and I'd have probably no friends. Sure I teach as much as possible, but I'm realistic about their belief systems and my ability to change them.

[phloxy]

If we hold omnis at arms length, how can they know to change? :confused:

There is a lot of length on the spectrum between holding omnis at arm's length and bringing them into our lives, our households, and our beds in hopes that they will change. I wouldn't expect a vegan to fall in love with me if I were eating meat, and I wouldn't be offended if a staunch Republican said to me, "I don't think things are going to work out because your progressive views are troubling to me."

FWIW, I was married when I became vegan. We had been married for about 1.5 years. My husband (now ex) thought that I was going to make our household go broke with my "expensive foods," and despite my talking about the issues, he never showed any inkling to change.

After veganism came a whole boatload of new awareness about global justice issues and human rights. I became activist minded. He had an interest in none of this, and he was about as equally oblivious to it as I was passionate, which was a whole heck of a lot, especially at the beginning. He came to think my veganism and my desire to change the world as being "cute," which I found somewhat insulting.

Maybe it was my obligation to try to continue to love him. Maybe I needed to hang in there and hope for change while overlooking this enormous difference that had opened between us. But I just couldn't do it. I could not feel passionately about this man any longer because his politics and his diet were anathema to me.

I felt really shallow about it for a long time, and I hate being divorced. But in the end, I know it was the right thing to do. It's not a marriage when you are wishing that things were different.

It occurs to me, though, that maybe there weren't enough other loving things going on in my marrriage to bridge that enormous gap that my change to veganism opened up. There were other problems in that marriage. Perhaps in the right circumstances, the dietary/lifestyle thing can fall back a bit and be overshadowed by another element of the relationship that is very strong and good. I can see how something like having a child together or overcoming some hardship or having some other beloved activity in common might make the veganism seem like less of a towering difference.

I've dated some pretty incompatible guys, LOL. I even went out with one outright vegan asshole. As much as veganism can cement a relationship, it really does take more than that to make it function well and be healthy.

It's really interesting hearing about the experiences of others.

[kaylie likes plurr]

.....
So, it can happen. The problem is that it's hard to tell who will become veg and who won't. If you love the person, I believe their being omni doesn't have to be a deal breaker. People are complex – they do and believe lots of different things. There are lots of things to love and dislike about a person. If you find someone you love, they are worth exploring. You only live one life, and wouldn't it be sad if you could have had a great relationship with someone but let it get away?

Well, thank you for sharing that mishka, because whether I will end up going thorough that with sammy or not, it's still gives me hope :DI need to work on not pushing him:umm:

[kaylie likes plurr]

I was the omni asshole when I first started dating my husband.
thats sp hard to believe! wow! Gladcow the wonderful vegan cooker and has a vegan cook book! haha. I never woulda thought that.. but again I never could picture any of you eating meat priorly - which I'm sure most of us did. I know i did ....quite a bit:blank:

I'm guessing if one loves Hitler, then one would be quite disappointed to know he's dead and no longer able to be in a relationship.
:laugh: I'm not really sure if that was supposed to be funny or not, but It made me LOL.

if one loves someone who is as hateful as Hitler, perhaps they are hateful themselves? however, I have a hard time believing that a vegan who loves an omni is hateful in any way.

also (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_Law)
and good point.

[Calliope]

Love who you love? What if you love Hitler?

If any of your children decided to eat meat, would you disown them? If it's that abhorrent to you, I guess you should.

Obviously everyone on this board thinks eating meat is wrong. We probably all believe murder and theft are wrong too. The difference is that our culture is RAISED to believe that eating meat is natural. Like you, I was uncomfortable with it from a young age, and was vegetarian on and off in my younger years. (didn't go vegan till I was early 20's though.) But I still don't think it's fair to compare omn's to cold blooded killers or thieves, because we were all raised to know that theft and murder are wrong. Again, I'm not saying this is right. Us vegans know what's up, but it's not fair to paint all omnis like callous, unfeeling a**holes. I know a lot of omnis who are very loving and compassionate people. I don't think that my refusing to interact with them or calling them jerks would make them any more likely to see veganism as a more compassionate way to live.

[kaylie likes plurr]

good call calliope.
sometimes i feel like all omni's just suck, and i get in those moods were i just go on about how I hate everyone who's an omni and get so frustratted, especially when i get made fun of...why am I being made fun of, so i need constant reminders of well - exactly ehat you just said. so thankies, because that helped ME, seeing as I've been in one of those moods the past few days, you know...it being thanksgiving and all.
and the kids in my drivers ed class :blank:

[bekah-chan]

i said single but they wouldn't have to be.
i would LOVE it if they were vegan, and vegetarian is STRONGLY PREFERRED.
i could definitely have feelings for someone who eats meat, but in the long run (ie if we end up getting married) things could get a little complicated (ie meals and whether or not to raise our children v*gan if we had any).
plus i could obviously never be with someone who thought vegetarianism is "stupid."

[michiganveganchick]

i think it's possible i could date a non-vegetarian, but in the long-run he'd have to be amenable to not eating that crap around me and never cooking it/bringing it home if we had a home together. that's probably the only way i could end up with someone who eats animals.

the last few non-veg guys I dated were very open to the idea of going vegan or at least vegan/vegetarian at home for the right girl...

[mishka]

Pretty much all my non-veg partners were like that – respectful enough to not eat it around me, and rarely, if ever, brought stuff into the home. My current partner is the only one to actually go veg.

[luxilu]

i think i might welcome an omni or vegetarian if i could convert them! but i also think i would become frustrated with someone who found out about the cruelty and exploitation and said "i could NEVER give up cheese" (everyone says that to me!) My roommate dated my vegan friend and tried to be vegetarian for like a week. she will sit here and tell me how she's contemplating buying beef jerkey and i offten talk her out of it buy giving her some nuts or some other compassionate snack.

[kaylie likes plurr]

ugh luxilu me too! I hate when people say that crap. it's ridiculous when they KNOW about the atrocities but could never give up __________ *cheese being the biggest one* and like ughhhh so frustrating! It just doesn't make sense :mad:

[nauthiz]

I find myself wondering if the folks who have such a hard time accepting the idea of a vegan loving a non-vegan have gotten around to disowning all the animal-murdering members of their family yet. :blank:

[downwithapathy]

I find myself wondering if the folks who have such a hard time accepting the idea of a vegan loving a non-vegan have gotten around to disowning all the animal-murdering members of their family yet. :blank:
Not fair. We generally don't live with those relatives. I personally can accept a lot of things in friends and family that I can't accept in a partner. Sleeping with other people for one. :p If I'm going to build a life with someone, we need to have similar worldviews. That includes veganism. For me, it's not about who I can love. It's about who I can love without too many tears.

That said, I recently had a passing interest in someone I'm pretty sure eats meat. It turns out I'm only picky when I'm in a relationship. Were I to have pursued Mr. Potentially-Good-For-Me-But-Not-Veg*an, I probably would have gradually become more picky about the whole vegan thing. And also about sleeping with other people. :p

[nauthiz]

I wasn't meaning a dig at people who personally feel they couldn't be with someone who eats meat. I was trying to voice my opposition about some posts I've seen that paint vegans who feel differently about the subject in a poor light.

What if your brother was Hitler? :p

[downwithapathy]

I wasn't meaning a dig at people who personally feel they couldn't be with someone who eats meat. I was trying to voice my opposition about some posts I've seen that paint vegans who feel differently about the subject in a poor light.

What if your brother was Hitler? :p
I'm not convinced my brother isn't. :blank: Okay. Maybe (certainly) not Hitler, but my brother has lots and lots of traits that worry me.

If you can be with someone who isn't veg*an, I admire your emotional strength. I'd probably find myself crying and writing "please try to understand me" letters far too often. ...which doesn't mean I won't try it anyway. :D

[Ariann]

I guess it's a matter of prioritizing. When I was looking for a partner, the traits and worldviews that were most important to me did not include veganism and finding someone with almost all of the qualities I was looking for was a major achievement. Nearly six years later those traits are still what impress me even if my priorities have shifted slightly. The concessions that my partner has made to deal with my priority-shift come from the underlying good qualities that first attracted me to him. So his not being vegan is certainly not going to bring on any tears on my part because he's still the best suited person for me I've ever met and understands me better than anyone else ever could.

[downwithapathy]

I'm not offended by the Holocaust analogy, either, and I lost most of my family in the Holocaust. However, on a certain level animals are never going to morally equivalent to humans to me and I can understand and empathize with people's belief that animals exist for our use and not for their own purposes (which I could not empathize with if someone said it about humans). As an example of their moral difference, I think euthanizing a "pet" is morally okay, but euthanizing a human is not. So my husband eating meat outside the home (so rarely) doesn't strike me as equivalent in offensiveness to him going around and snatching purses or punching people out on the street. In some system they might be morally equivalent, maybe even if I thought about it long enough they'd become morally equivalent in my own system, but they're not in his and it's something I can understand. If I couldn't deal with that I couldn't have any relationship with my family and I'd have probably no friends. Sure I teach as much as possible, but I'm realistic about their belief systems and my ability to change them.
At first, this post left me with a figurative funny taste. I think this is primarily because, on most levels, humans and and nonhumans are moral equivalents to me. I told myself that you have a belief system that values human existence. Whew! Funny taste gone. :p

My mind wandered back to this while I was walking my dog a bit ago. While I have no doubt that human life is more important to you than other species life (a trait I'm sure most animals share), I can't help but wonder if that's not the entire picture. I will point out now that this is brain rambling, and I don't much care what you seek in a partner. I want for you whatever arrangement makes you and your partner happy. You just happen to be the VRFer to have inspired the (not terribly interesting) thoughts. :)

I think a huge part of this is cultural. Most of us grew up eating animals and are surrounded by people who see absolutely nothing wrong with doing such. Using animals is 100% okay. We're at the top of the food chain, right? Factory farming is only natural. However, it's not acceptable in our culture to go around kicking puppies or punching kitties. You would be bothered if you husband went around punching peoples' faces, and I bet you'd also be bothered if he went around kicking puppies. Both activities are seen as wrong in our dominant culture. Eating meat is normal. Also, punching people and kicking puppies are both active choices to cause suffering. Eating meat is a more passive one.

I've heard it argued that in choosing one life over another, one should choose the life of the individual with the most to live for. Usually, they say, it will be a human. Occasionally, it will be the hypothetical pig, dog, or whatever. The funny thing is, the example nonhuman is always a domesticated animal. Indeed I probably do have more to live for than Zoe the dog. After all, she's dependent on me. Without me, she'd be dependent on someone else. Without her, I would rescue another dog, giving my life elevated meaning again. Also, I have familial connections. She was removed from her family at an early age. Using the above logic, domesticated animals generally do have less to live for than most human beings. Fair enough justification for euthanasia of pets, for example. Were I to pass away, I'm not sure I know anyone who would be willing to give Zoe the kind of home I want her to have. I'm certainly not saying I would want her to be euthanized, but would I feel the same way if she were 14 like my boydog back home? I'm not sure.

This all becomes more tricky when I start to consider wild animals. Who am I to say that I'm more important to my family than a wolf would be to his pack or a chimpanzee mother to her children? I value my human family more because they're my family. I bet that chimpanzee mother values her family more. Furthermore, her life is just as important to her as mine is to me.

Beyond all of that, I may relate more to a human woman I don't know than to a chimpanzee, simply because our minds and experiences are more similar. That's not enough justification for me. It's just my perspective as someone who was born and raised human. This is similar to my mom's defense of her valuing American life over any other human life. She's American and relates more to the American experience. Thus, she values American life over other life. I'm pretty sure most nonAmericans do not share that tendency.

[Ariann]

Sonja, good response. We will have to agree to disagree, because I still value human life over non-human life, from both an emotional and a philosophical viewpoint. [Aside: I don't value American life over non-American life or Jewish life over non-Jewish life (or whatever other category you want to draw) from a philosophical point of view, but I do emotionally. We all value the things which are closer to us or seem to have more in common with us. Non-Americans are not an exception to this, that's really nonsensical. Everyone has some cultural/national/ethnic group they are more strongly attached to than all others. And I see all of that as productive and positive, not something to feel guilty about.] I don't know what kind of argument I'd have to make to myself to make it otherwise, but it's bigger than a cultural construct of the right here and now, it's a foundational aspect of my larger belief system.

I hear you about kicking puppies, that was a good counterargument. Still, my rationale for (possibly) being more angry about someone going around kicking puppies than say, eating puppies, is that I understand that that particular behavior lands at the intersection of two vying ideals (which I'd call human dominion to serve our utilitarian purposes and compassion towards the weak) and in most people's minds it would fall on the non-utilitarian side of that intersection and therefore be an egregious failure to follow the culturally-accepted ideal. Then there's a question of whether I'd actually be more angry at someone for kicking a puppy than punching a stranger in the face. Entirely possible. All of that lies at messy ideal-intersections.

In any case, I have not delved so far into animal rights ideology to have lost my *ability* to understand, appreciate, and sympathize with another's perspective. And I definitely don't want to even get to that place. And even if some of the behaviors which come out of that other perspective sicken me, I still "get" that person and believe they are able to "get" me. There are some perspectives I wouldn't be able to understand and some that would rub up too hard against me to be able to live with, even if the person were in all other respects pefectly suited for me. This is not one of them. We all have to draw our own lines.

[downwithapathy]

On my last sentence: I should have written something like "point of view" rather than "tendency." I meant that nonAmericans most likely do not share the view that American life is more important.

[bumblebee]

If any of your children decided to eat meat, would you disown them? If it's that abhorrent to you, I guess you should.

Obviously everyone on this board thinks eating meat is wrong. We probably all believe murder and theft are wrong too. The difference is that our culture is RAISED to believe that eating meat is natural. Like you, I was uncomfortable with it from a young age, and was vegetarian on and off in my younger years. (didn't go vegan till I was early 20's though.) But I still don't think it's fair to compare omn's to cold blooded killers or thieves, because we were all raised to know that theft and murder are wrong. Again, I'm not saying this is right. Us vegans know what's up, but it's not fair to paint all omnis like callous, unfeeling a**holes. I know a lot of omnis who are very loving and compassionate people. I don't think that my refusing to interact with them or calling them jerks would make them any more likely to see veganism as a more compassionate way to live.

It's hard for me to imagine how I would feel if one of my children decided to eat meat. It's just so far away from who they are. Of course, in the beginning, I didn't feel so confident, but they are now 27, 23, 21, 14 and 12 and all seem 100% committed to it. I watch them convert or their SOs and friends, time and time again. Whatever I did worked.

Yet, if one did decide to eat meat, I would not disown them, but I would wonder how, why etc. and take some blame, of course. I can not imagine ever disowning one of my children. Not even if they were Hitler.

Our culture, has many many sub-cultures. Some of them teach terrible things, like murder. I grew up in a household where cops were the bad guys.
When they'd come to my school to teach us something about safety, or whatever, I saw them as my personal enemy when I was an 8 year old kid.
People are raised with all sorts of values and I don't expect them to over-come them. Who knows what the f*** happened to Hitler.

I don't criticize omnis. I don't have deep, personal relationships with them, either, but I often cook for them. I've learned that it's best for me to not say anything about it. The last thing I want to do is turn people off to the idea of vegetarianism.

[bumblebee]

I wasn't meaning a dig at people who personally feel they couldn't be with someone who eats meat. I was trying to voice my opposition about some posts I've seen that paint vegans who feel differently about the subject in a poor light.

What if your brother was Hitler? :p

People seemed happy with the phrase, "Love who you love" which I took to mean, Love who you love, regardless. Asking "What if you love Hitler?" was just my way of pointing out that there is no regardless, when it comes to love. We all have our limits, so what does "Love who you love" even mean?

[kaylie likes plurr]

wow.

[mishka]

We all have our limits, so what does "Love who you love" even mean?

gladcow and nauthiz touched on how I felt after reading the Hitler remark.

...if one loves someone who is as hateful as Hitler, perhaps they are hateful themselves? however, I have a hard time believing that a vegan who loves an omni is hateful in any way.

I was trying to voice my opposition about some posts I've seen that paint vegans who feel differently about the subject in a poor light.

I felt it was extremely judgmental, irrational and hurtful. And my feelings had nothing to do with Hitler or the Holocaust comparison. It had everything to do with what that statement implied about vegans and their non-vegan partners.

The vegans here who love their omni and non-vegan partners love them for a reason – or many reasons. They should embrace those reasons and not feel guilty (and not be made to feel guilty) about loving someone who chooses to consume animal products. The judgment by other vegans can be overwhelming sometimes and it can make you question the true, pure love you have for your partner. I do not love Hitler – I love a kind, respectful, truly good human being... who also happens to consume the occasional egg or dairy product. I accept his limitations, just as he accepts my many limitations, and we have formed a solid partnership.

I'm not saying that vegans who choose to want vegan-only partners are wrong. I think that's a great choice. I have no judgment – I'm not telling anyone to change. Likewise, those with non-vegan partners should not question their relationships because of pressure from the vegan community – believe me, that pressure is out there – and they should love who they love. Without guilt.

[kaylie likes plurr]

holy crap mishka.
i've been so pissed off at the bf since last night
and havent been able to get over it
because hes still continuing to be a little prick
and just because i was so angry i was considering just
breaking up with him and saying to hell with it i'll find a vegan
partner, and use his omni'ness as part of a justification.
i'm really glad you mentioned that all
because even though my original reason for being mad
wasn't about him eating meat, you made me think
and realize some crap, so i'm really glad you shared your thoughts
:heart: :kiss:

[vegankitty]

+1 Mishka

My boyfriend is an omni. Would I prefer him to be vegan? Yes , of course. But do I think its going to happen? No. I still love him. We have so many other things in common and other things we share. He respects my veganism. He also has an illness that affects his appetite and limits what he eats. And since I love him I put his health above my values. He doesn't eat meat at home but he does eat dairy. It's not what I would ideally wish for but it is the way things are.

One of the things that turns him off too veganism is when they vegans compare omnis to murderers and I think in the long run we do ourselves a disservice by doing this.

I heard a speaker say that when we vegans eat out with or cook for omnis we are creating one more vegan meal that otherwise would have been omni.

[nauthiz]

We all have our limits, so what does "Love who you love" even mean?
I think in this case, it means "You love who you love, and I'll love who I love, and we'll both just accept that we have different priorities when it comes to deciding what qualifications a person needs before we're willing to rub our squishy bits on them." :blank:

[lullured]

Sonja, good response. We will have to agree to disagree, because I still value human life over non-human life, from both an emotional and a philosophical viewpoint. [Aside: I don't value American life over non-American life or Jewish life over non-Jewish life (or whatever other category you want to draw) from a philosophical point of view, but I do emotionally. We all value the things which are closer to us or seem to have more in common with us. Non-Americans are not an exception to this, that's really nonsensical. Everyone has some cultural/national/ethnic group they are more strongly attached to than all others. And I see all of that as productive and positive, not something to feel guilty about.] I don't know what kind of argument I'd have to make to myself to make it otherwise, but it's bigger than a cultural construct of the right here and now, it's a foundational aspect of my larger belief system.


I feel the same way. I wish I had something clever to add, but maybe some other day... :)

[topperarnold]

...sometimes i feel like all omni's just suck, and i get in those moods were i just go on about how I hate everyone who's an omni and get so frustratted, especially when i get made fun of...why am I being made fun of,

Imagine being a teacher, almost forty and having teenagers take a glee in making fun of vegetarianism and openly reading hunting magazines and showing you pics of their latest kill (this doesn't happen as much now since I'm on to them.) Sometimes it is very hard. I often remind the students that they are making a mockery of COMPASSION and MERCY something they should know about since they are in a Catholic school and are required to take ethics, morality and other religion courses.

Yeah, people can suck sometimes. :(

[kaylie likes plurr]

I think in this case, it means "You love who you love, and I'll love who I love, and we'll both just accept that we have different priorities when it comes to deciding what qualifications a person needs before we're willing to rub our squishy bits on them." :blank:
:laugh: i agree. like how its said.:p

Imagine being a teacher, almost forty and having teenagers take a glee in making fun of vegetarianism and openly reading hunting magazines and showing you pics of their latest kill (this doesn't happen as much now since I'm on to them.) Sometimes it is very hard. I often remind the students that they are making a mockery of COMPASSION and MERCY something they should know about since they are in a Catholic school and are required to take ethics, morality and other religion courses.

Yeah, people can suck sometimes. :(

ugh yeah that does sound extremely frustrating :(
ESPECIALLY being a teacher and having to watych what you do/say.:umm:

[robbie707]

Hey vegan peoples...

My personal belief is what we eat determines what we emit (body smell and how / what we taste of each other) ...so i look for a vegan / raw foodie each time.
If a active and current non-vegan consumed recent meat meal/s, i would have a hard time being (or considering being) initmate with that person.
As one of the posts indicates, his vegan mates smell alot better than his non-vegan buddies. :)

Robbie

[trishsutton]

Unfortunately neither my hubby or son are Vegan, not even Veggie. When I went Vegan they stayed carnivores. They do tend to eat some of my food too, but it is still not easy.

Living with two carnivores and smelling and seeing what they cook has been pretty hard on me, especially when my son asks me to make him something I now despise. Or when I go food shopping.

But I support them on their decision because they supported and helped me with mine. Besides, who am I to tell another how to live their life?

But if I ever were to start dating again, I do not think I could be with another who was not Vegan, it is way too difficult.

It may be discriminating, but I just don't think I would want to purposely put myself through this again.
I'm in a marriage with an omni right now and it is SO hard. I don't know if we'll make it. And we have a child. Can anyone give me suggestions?

[squirrel]

It IS hard to be with an omni. It's hard for me because I do it because of my compassion for the animals, and it's hard sometimes to look at my fiance and know that he doesn't feel the same way about animals as I do. He loves them, too, but he also doesn't think twice about eating the "non-pet" ones. As an example, he loves hummingbirds and wants to get feeders for them, but doesn't link that a chicken is kind of, basically a big hummingbird, because (to him) a chicken isn't cute and pretty. I don't tell him what to do, but it's hard to see someone I love choose the opposite path of morals as I have. He supports me in my lifestyle, and helps me with it, but doesn't do it himself at all.

[downwithapathy]

I know there are some very successful vegan/omni marriages represented on this board, but I don't know how you all do it. My only relationship that's lasted more than a couple of months (five years, yo) was with a vegan. The longer I'm single, the more open I feel to dating an omnivore. However, support for me in my lifestyle isn't enough. My omnivore would have to be of the "I don't think I can give up *whatever* but I'll try to eat less of it and I know that it sucks" variety. :p

[Provoked]

I'm sorry trishsutton - I can't be of any help to you... As I am also in the same (pun intended) "boat"...

I have an odd kind of dilema and it is unfolding now...

When my husband and I first met (20 years ago) - our first real date was on his boat... fishing. Well, I continued to be a "fishing partner" for 10 or so years. Then bit by bit I began feeling sad for the fish we caught. They struggled out of the water... and I just emotionally started to "connect". I was still an omnivore at the time - I was just having a hard time "doing the deed" myself. :rolleyes: It felt "cruel".

I started to just go along for the ride - I'd put the hook in the water, knowing my bait was gone... and (secretly) deliberately never caught fish anymore.

And this continued through my vegetarian years - I grew to dislike being in the vacinity of fish catching more and more... It saddened DH because I was once his main fishing "buddy". I only realize this now... but 10 years ago something was "awakening" in me then... :o

Well, now that I'm trying to be as vegan as I can - it's hard for me to even hold my tongue about it. Even though he's gone pescatarian (from omni) - and we "agreed" I'd leave his fishing out of it. :rolleyes: I've done a rotten job doing such.

In fact, 8 months ago we went camping where you can leave your boat in the water all night. A lovely place... but during the day - there was all that fish killing and well, at night - everyone in the park fired up their grills with assorted stinking flesh on them. It was disgusting... Really, really gross - and I was surrounded for hours with no escape. I wound up vomiting nearly night. And every morning the campers next to us... at breakfast: "Would you like some ham with that sausage? How about some bacon with your ham? Are you sure you don't want some more blah... blah... blah" I swear - these people were round the clock carnivores! :mad:

So, it wound up being a pretty miserable trip. So much so, that I declined to go this time around... and DH and I are having our first "vacation" away from each other. He's down in the Keys... while I'm here talking about all this...

Now, this leaves me in a position of accepting that DH's values and mine are very different.

In the beginning - I honestly don't think he saw "fish" as animals... He called "fish" - "sea-food". :umm: Still does I guess... we just don't talk about it much anymore. It's really a "no discussion" kind of thing with him. :no:

The trouble is - that it's so much a part of his heritage... and "tradition" - He's been fishing since he was a child. And I married him, knowing (and approving) of all this - then I changed.

And I try to reason some things out in my head... He no longer eats cheese, or land mammals - which is a good thing... :happy: And it's not as "unfair" as hunting... You really have to get "lucky" for your fish to bite the hook - OUCH! And then from there on it goes down hill... A "good fish" is the one who fights hard. Well, yeah - they are struggling to stay alive!!! :confused: And sometimes they swallow the hook - and even if they aren't keepers... they're done for anyway. :cry:
OH! And then a month ago... he cooked fish in the house- OH PUKE! What a stink! I'd think I'd rather smell a cat litter box! :yuck:

But... I think I'm just going to have to live with all this - If so many other vegans can actually stand living with someone who eats land mammals... And I know I'm going to sound "speciesist" here... but for the occassional fishing trip I just can't see myself ending an otherwise pretty decent 20 years of marraige. It sucks. I wish he respected all animals... like I try to do... :rolleyes:

In this way - I've grown and he has not... He just has so much "fun" catching them... he can't see his life without the "sport". And it's a "social" thing too... there are other couples that fish together... So that just leaves me - the "odd" wife. It's not like just eating differently when you go out with other couples - I'm definately "different" (and separate) than the other gals. :worried:

I don't know... maybe in time our differences will just become too large to find common ground anymore? Or should I just learn to be super tolerant - and go with him next time - and just keep biting my lip? :brood: Other than this, he's a really decent person - but "fishing" is definately direct killing - it's a tough one - isn't it? :huh: Thoughts??? Anyone?

[tin can]

That does sound really tough, Provoked. {{{}}} I find it hard enough to put up with work colleagues who fish, or (in one case) breed and trade pond- and aquarium-fishes. :umm:

For what it's worth though, I don't think it's speciesist as such not to end your marriage, which is obviously built upon a lot more than just this issue, over the fact that he still goes fishing.

[Provoked]

Well... the thing with fishing is that it's a direct act of killing. It's not like eating a food which the animal has already been killed... and not by your hand either. Yes, I know it's tough - Indeed it's going to be one of those things I just learn to accept (tolerate)... Poor me, looking for a perfect world and a perfect marriage at once - :umm:

[bumblebee]

I asked my husband to stop eating pork, cause pigs are so smart. He loved pork, but he agreed. The rest, he gave up on his own, over time. (He still has the occasional ice cream cone, and often has to eat vegetarian meals, when he's working, but he's close to vegan).

I haven't given up everything I love, or that's convenient, for the animals. I still drive occasionally, I live in a house, I buy some packaged foods, and plastic things, etc. I think I could look past someone fishing, if they'd already given up a lot and it sounds like your husband has. If I were you, I'd go with him. :)

[grog]

what about catch and release? It's a step in the right direction anyway.

[gladcow]

what about "feeding"? we modified my daughter's fishing pole so that she can attach bait for the fish without it hurting them. Now she can fish with my parents, which makes them all happy. Maybe your pole could be a feeding pole? We just snipped off the sharp hook parts.

[Emiloid]

trishsutton, I'm not sure what to say exactly, but I think being in a relationship with an omnivore is doable. I've dated two omnis since becoming vegan, and although I'm not with them anymore, vegan vs not vegan was not the reason we broke up in either case. (In one case it may have added a bit of stress, since I went vegan during the relationship. Even then, it wasn't anywhere close to the main reason we split up.)

Personally, I think the key is to be respectful of each other, and to ignore a lot. Your partner will have to do the same, of course. Try to focus on the things that you really do appreciate about the person, rather than spending a lot of energy wishing they were different.

Also, I'd recommend Carol Adams' book Living Among Meat Eaters, if you haven't already read it. I think it's a useful book in general, but especially if you have to deal with a non-vegan in such a constant and intimate way.

[Rainwish]

what about "feeding"? we modified my daughter's fishing pole so that she can attach bait for the fish without it hurting them. Now she can fish with my parents, which makes them all happy. Maybe your pole could be a feeding pole? We just snipped off the sharp hook parts.

That is such a wonderful idea. Although what bait is used?


and on topic, trishsutton, are there other non vegan issues at play? Honestly if I ever get involved with someone again they will have be vegan or at least veganizable in the home (because I'm older and more stubborn now) but my last relationship lasted 8 years and although looking back I wish things were different on the vegan front, my being vegan and him not was never a source of our problems (although he was very supportive of me and would come up with vegan recipes which could be the difference).

Plus were you vegan before getting married or is it an evolution for you and he's not evolved yet? I think that would make a big difference as well.

In the end it's hard to give advice without more information because like with any relationship issue there are many factors to consider.

[gladcow]

That is such a wonderful idea. Although what bait is used?


I'm not sure what they usually use, as they do this when the kids are staying with them and I'm off being a Not Mom :p, but probably velveeta :yuck: I think potato chips or crackers would work.

[Provoked]

bumblebee - you're right hubby does feel he's given up alot. Suppose that's part of the problem... he's doing it mostly for me. I think left to his own, he'd find a way to be "normal" and just ignore animal issues like everyone else does. When someone says that they've "given stuff up" - it's usually under protest right? :rolleyes:

But he has throughout our relationship always tried to make me happy - I do think I will make an effort to go with him next time... and enjoy what I can, so that he has companionship doing what he likes to do.

And that's just it... why feeding fish won't work. He likes catching them, keeping them and eating them... so catch and release isn't an option either. :umm:

Although one of the day trips we took, he had a bad day and wound up feeding all the gulls, egrets and herons the dead bait fish... (ick) We sort of... (or at least I did) have a good time doing that... :rolleyes:

It is sort of like a vegan in a relationship with a hunter though... just a different species. But if I stay stubborn on this, it's sure to end badly. My plan is to just suck it up and be as wonderful about it all as possible. :D "See - I'm smiling!" :D

At least I can vent to you guys about it... thanks for the good advice. :kiss:

[tin can]

Hmmm. I think that his catching fishes isn't ok with you, and never will be. In your situation, I don't think that I would pretend that it is, but would perhaps try and accept that it is his decision to make, much as you dislike it. A bit like when, a couple of years back, my (omni) parents wanted to get some leather armchairs for their living room. My father approached me about it (part of the reason was that my mother had had back surgery and these chairs were supposedly the only ones available that she would be comfortable in) and was fairly pressurising about it: he wanted to get my blessing (or whatever) for him to buy the chairs. I told him that it was not something that I could sanction, but that he didn't need my permission to buy them. He wasn't amazingly happy about it, but he accepted that in the end and got two of the armchairs with matching footrests. :rolleyes:

Another example would be how girl can and I would bring up any (so far) hypothetical children. Once we thought they were old enough to make such decisions, we wouldn't force them to be vegan against their will (as if that's possible), but also wouldn't leave any doubt about what we thought was right and wrong in this area.

I don't know if I would manage such a situation myself, but wish you the best of luck. {{{Provoked}}}

[Provoked]

Thanks tin can... ;) I've had a good long week to think on it - and it certainly isn't anything I'm pleased about... But weighing all the good against the one negative - I'd be foolish to continue to make this an issue. I've made it known it's not my thing anymore... I know I could NEVER snuff the life of any being again. Heck - all you vegans got me to the point where I just about trip over my own feet in order to avoid stepping on a bug! :laugh: You certainly did a good job on me - I don't want to harm any being even accidentally! :D

But my life isn't his life... And it's not that I don't/won't judge - it's just that my opinions need not be vocalized. He's really a good person... he's smart enough to fix his own blind spots in his own time.

I do have to throw this out though - an incident that happened a decade ago. We went fishing... caught & cooked the poor creatures. Well, somehow a small bone was left in a piece that I ate... It lodged in my throat -:uhoh: It stayed there 18 hours before I finally went to the emergency room to have it removed. Let me tell you about pain & discomfort! :sweat: Something in my mind told me then that this was nature's way of telling me "hand's off animals as food". After that the only fish I ate was tuna... and even then with reluctance. It's just funny how some things manifest themselves... and the peculiar ways we are pointed towards our truth.

This has been cathartic for me... very helpful - thank you. :kiss:

Oh... and that was certainly the most effective way to handle the leather chairs. You can only try to guide people to see the errors - and let them make up their own minds the way they will...