FIP dilemma

[Rosemary]

A friend of mine provides foster care for rescued cats and kittens until they are placed in permanent homes.

I was recently shocked to learn that one of her (own) cats has FIP! She lives in a bachelor apartment, so of course this cat with FIP cannot be kept separate from the other cats.

I think that she should not be keeping the foster cats and the cat with FIP together, because of the risk of infection, but she is a believer in alternative medicine, will not get veterinary advice (except in an emergency -- I hope) and thinks that by giving the cats good food, herbs, etc. that they will not get FIP, or that FIP is not that bad, or I don't know what her thinking is.

Recently, a few kittens that she was caring for died. These kittens were orphaned at a very young age, their mother was a stray with who knows what health problems, maybe they would have died anyway, but I can't help but wonder if they were killed by FIP. She has consulted with local people who supposedly know a lot about alternative medicine for cats, but I don't know if she has discussed the FIP with them.

I am also upset because two of my cats were fostered with this friend (one of them is the sister of the cat with FIP). Before I adopted them, I was emphatic that I wanted to be sure they weren't carrying anything that could be passed on to the cat who was already in my family, and my friend didn't mention the FIP situation (maybe the cat with FIP hadn't been diagnosed back then? but she didn't tell me until a couple of *years* later).

So how serious is FIP? How contagious is it? What should I do? I've tried talking about it with her, but she pooh-poohs my concerns. She has helped a lot of cats over the years, I do admire her dedication, but I think she is making a serious mistake in this situation.

[misanthropy]

Did you check out the Cornell info on FIP? FIP is spread very easily from cat to cat. :(

http://www.vet.cornell.edu/fhc/resources/brochure/fip.html

[herbi]

That's probably the exact site I would've linked to! :)

Feline Infectious Peritonitis is a tricky disease, Rosemary, and I'm not sure what to say because there are so many unknowns. Hmm...

The old school of thought is that this disease is HIGHLY contagious and a huge worry, since it is untreatable and almost always fatal.

But there is a new school of thought that says that "FIP" itself is not actually contagious-- that it is an individual over-immune-reaction on the part of certain cats to a very contagious but very common and not particularly dangerous coronavirus. Therefore, you needn't worry about strictly isolating FIP-infected cats since it is a peculiarity in themselves that led to the disease and not the original infectious agent. (Though it wouldn't hurt to quarantine them anyway, as the vomiting and diarrhea that most coronaviruses cause is No Fun either, and can lead to death in very young, old, or already stressed/sick animals...)

I was originally educated the Old School way, and so am still extremely nervous and worried about FIP getting into the shelter and wreaking havoc (we had some seemingly symptomatic cats & kittens this summer), but I was advised by the head virologist at the Cornell University Diagnostic Lab that all I really had to worry about was a generic (and already present anyway) coronavirus, because he obviously is a believer of the newest research. Nerve-wracking! But, it's true enough, even though some cats came in (and died actually) with FIP, it did not spread through the entire shelter, so...

All this may be moot, because I'm not sure how this woman knows her cat is a carrier of FIP??? As I believe the site mentions, there is no definitive test that can be carried out while a cat is still alive! Diagnosis is always confirmed post-mortem, and meanwhile the only available test is incapable of distinguishing between FIP-infected cats and cats who have at any point in the past fought off an infection with feline enteric coronavirus. Frankly, it would be unusual if her cat had FIP as we know it and is still alive years later... Hmmm... I do think it's extremely unethical of her to mix new foster kittens and cats in with an animal she believes to be the carrier of an infectious fatal disease! But in practice, it may not be all that dangerous in this case...

I wish I had more definitive advice, but unfortunately this disease is kind of a grey area. Some vets would say she's definitely endangering the life of any cat that comes in contact with her cat (or her apartment, her clothes, etc, anything that touched her cat & could be a fomite) and others would say that there's no point in worrying since coronaviruses are everywhere anyway, and it's impossible to predict which cats will have a reaction that causes full-on FIP instead of the usual symptoms. Either way, it doesn't really sound like there's too much you can "do" about the situation. :umm: Sorry!

[vegporn]

Reviving another old thread...

Maybe the vet med link covered all this, but here's my experience with the disease. I adopted a little sickly kitten from a shelter last fall. She was left by someone in a box outside the facility at night, *caked* in dirt and fleas. She had kitty cold along with the fleas, and soon after bringing her home, I found that she had ringworm as well. She spread it to my other cat, and they both had to go through horrid baths, topicals, and oral meds for weeks, for the ringworm and kitty cold.

Sophie began to have issues with bladder control. To the vet she went, and they did something to see if it was stones (ultrasound? I have no idea, they wouldn't let me come to the back room.) It wasn't stones, so we did a full blood panel and that came back with the likelihood that she had feline coronavirus.

Not long after that, she began limping. I thought she hurt her paw, but after a while, it was obvious it was not a sore paw or fracture. Again, to the vet. They had no idea, and thought that possible a tumor was developing in her spinal column that was pressing on spine. I could not afford to get a CT scan to see if this was the case, and went to another vet for a second opinion. We did a test for FIP, and that came back as most likely. (Virus tests are finicky anyway.)

By this point, Sophie was no longer using her back legs, and he vet psuhed strongly for euthanasia. I'm not sure if all FIP cases involve partial paralysis. Here's how she got around: (QT format, .7MB)
http://www.vegporn.com/img/walking5.mov

Sophie was tough as hell, and was still determined to move herself around my apartment, climb on the bed/couch and my lap. She wanted to take care of herself (didn't like being confined or helped), and the only thing she needed was for me to empty her bladder for her a few times a day. Poops were just coming out on their own. Sophie chose when she wanted to be euthanized. She stopped moving around, lost interest in sitting on the balcony (favorite activity), stopped eating/drinking.

The vet did a necropsy afterwards, which I was present for, and her whole abdomen and her organs were covered in tiny while sores. I'm not sure if the sores were present in her spinal column.

My other cat who was with her every day of her sickness is still healthy, and a year later, has shown no signs of being ill. I decided to keep them together because they had already spent time sharing other diseases, and they were friends.

[lolamako]

Well, I am bumping this thread because the vet told me today that Patrick has "1 in 100" and that he is positive for FIP.

I am very scared, heartbroken, feeling lost and hopeless.

I adopted Patrick 3 years ago from our local shelter, he had been in quarantine for 4 weeks before he came out and I saw him and then adopted him. Soon after he came home all the cats got sick with what seemed to be the "flu." Sid never recovered and this was the beginning of the end for him.

I did not make the connection at first, and Im not sure there is one, he started to lose his fur, the vet thought that he was allergic to fleas (he was a daytime outside cat at the time) so we started to use advantage on him. It progressed very fast and many visits later, on a weekend, it got very bad, his tongue appeared to be swollen. He was sooo hungry but was constantly "chewing" his tongue and was bleeding.

We took him to a local vet that is open on the weekend and were told it was possibly cancer, and we couldn't know for sure unless we did a biopsy of his tongue. We decided at the time that we did not want to put him through that. He was in very bad shape, and ended up the next day being euthanized.

At the time we had Olive, Flea, Patrick inside. Obi was an outdoor cat and Princess had her room off the garage.

A couple of months later we found Fabrizio in the middle of the road, being driven over by cars. I jumped out of the car and snatched up this handful of a cat. He came home, got extremely attached to Patrick, even sucking on his nipples.

About a month later we found Fuzzy, with an upper respiratory track infection and his sister Lavender who was also very sick. We took Lavy to the vet and they were kind enough to give us meds for fuzz also.

A month or so later we found 4 baby cats in our back yard. Two with very bad eyes. we tried many courses of treatment to save Lumi and Angels eyes, but in the end they both lost one each. Lumi has scar tissue in his other eye.

Ralphie and Mister seemed ok, although Misters left eye with act up, water and sometimes swell. Most of the time it just waters. I treat it when the swelling happens with antibiotic ointment and eye drops.

A few months or so later, one rainy evening I heard a faint cat crying. It seemed to be coming from the front porch. I went out and found a fluffy black tiny baby Manx. So I brought him in, set him up in the bathroom and thought I should check again. Out I went, found a shorthair manx. In he came, out again and there was this tiny little baby crawling around the wet porch with his eyes crusted shut.

I really really thought that he would have to be euthanized. After I soaked his eyes open they looked really bad. I started the eye ointment and now he is a big beautiful loud mouth two eyed boy.

The manxes, shoes and chapies, both had many many problems, I talked about it here a few times. Nerve bundling problems causing incontinence and the massive irritation. They are both doing well now.

On thanksgiving of last year (a few weeks after finding the others on the porch) we decided to stay home and my Mom walked out and found a VERY tiny baby with his eyes crusted shut. He came in and got nursed to health. He never got 100% better, and I can think of a million things I could have done better for him. :brokenheart:

He lasted 4 months. In the last month his eyes started to get "spots" in the clear part. So the spots looked like they were floating over his eye. They also started to get a red tinge. We took him to the vet, he had a fever so we tried antibiotics and eye treatments. In the end he went down Very fast, his body was so weekend from not eating, I was force feeding him at the time, but not enough, that the vet could not get a vein to do blood work. She gave him some meds so that hopefully he would eat a little more and we could come back the next morning to take the blood.

His last night he came out to see the dogs, whom he had never met and, I think he was mentally not there at all, loved them.

The next day his liver started to shut down and it was a horrible sight to see him suffering.(This is so painful to talk about) We euthanized him that morning.



All the cats have been on amoxicillan for sneezing and other random "illnesses" at some point or another.

We have since found Babett, Mango and Nimbus. Mango got sick ran a high fever spent the night at the vets and came home a few months ago. The vet said it wasn't that bad, he responded to treatment. He has a slight cough, and sneezing today..I am worried that I exposed him to FIP.

Patrick has been losing weight for around a month, he is very fluffy and it is hard to tell just how bad it was. I have been working a lot and has admittedly not paid enough/any real attention to the cats lately. He has been vomiting a lot, it became noticeable, I have no idea if it started then, when we wormed everyone and advantaged all.

I asked the vet about it when Princess had gone in for her allergy shot. She said to give it a week. I did not see him vomit anymore. I now think that the other cats were eating it. I don't think he was eating very much therefore not vomiting very much and at times I was not there.

I noticed his weight loss, made a vet apt, and put him in the bathroom with a bed water food litter etc. He ate the first night at around 6-7pm all his wet food. The next morning he vomited all the wet food back up at around 8:30 am. He did not touch his other food. This was the same food.

Since then he has not kept anything down, but it seems to sit in his belly till the morning when he throws it all back up.

Last night I thought that we were going to lose him, so I aggressively started to feed him small amounts of food every 1 1/2 to 2 hours throughout the night. He perked up a little and then threw it all back up this morning.

His blood work showed his liver "levels" were elevated. And positive for the FIP. We have an apt with an internist tomorrow.

Patrick has been with the majority of the cats in there own room because of the litter problems we've been having. Now the three babies babett mango and nimbus are in my moms room, for fear of what they might have been or get exposed to.

I am totally overwhelmed. Everything I read about FIP scares the sh*t out of me then I read something else and I don't feel as hopeless.

I just cant imagine what will happen now. I feel bad because I keep thinking man I wish I didnt have this many cats, I didnt/dont mean it like I want them to die, I have just been feeling very very stressed out lately. I wish that our neighbor fixed her d*mn cats, I have trapped all three and had them spayed she neither noticed when they were gone for two days or that there ears were clipped. Her cats are the parents of most of my cats. I wish I was never put in this postion in the first place.

I feel like a bad pet owner, I dont make enough money BY FAR to do all that needs to be done, I am trying, and need to try harder, but I dont know what I should do.. This is a very scary, crappy time right now.



***********sigh**************
Patrick in better times.

[grog]

I'm so sorry lolamako, I don't know what else to say. It's very sad and scary sounding. big hugs.

[herbi]

So sorry, lolamako!!!

I don't think I can offer much meaningful help for you either, but some thoughts that come to mind:

-- You are NOT a bad person for taking in these cats. You undoubtedly saved the lives of the little URI kittens you took in.

-- You don't have to singlehandedly take on your irresponsible neighbor! If you have too many cats to take any more (or too many to keep them all as is now), there's no shame AT ALL in contacting a shelter, rescue group, sympathetic vet, or even nice private citizens to help you out with homes and medical care and spay/neuter.

-- It is NOT your fault that ANY of your cats were exposed to FIP-- coronaviruses are everywhere, vaccines against them are not terribly effective, and there is no way to know which cats are among the tiny percentage that will develop FIP when exposed to them. Just because Patrick is so sick, does NOT mean that the rest of your kitties will also suffer the same symptoms.

Pulled from the Cornell University Feline Health Center page misanthropy linked to above:

Initial exposure to the FIP virus usually results in no obvious clinical disease, although some cats may experience a mild upper respiratory disease that is characterized by sneezing, watery eyes, and watery nasal discharge. Some cats may experience a mild intestinal disease. Most cats that undergo the primary infection completely recover, although some of them may become virus carriers. Only a small percentage of exposed cats develop the lethal disease: weeks, months, or perhaps years after primary infection.

It's a terrible, horrible, tragic thing to happen (if it's true that's what he has), but if it is FIP then it's essentially random; you can't beat yourself up about it, and you can't assume that your other cats are doomed.

*hug*

[JasperKat]

Lola, you're breaking my heart. It makes me so sad that you are feeling that you don't do enough for your cats, when it seems obvious to me that you are giving them all happy lives, and the best health they can hope for. None of this is your fault, there is no way you could have known to keep Patrick away from the other cats. If he doesn't pull through this, I hope you take some comfort in knowing that you provided a loving and safe home for him. Most cats aren't lucky enough to have so many brothers and sisters to play with all day, and a guardian that has enough love in her heart to take in animals that desperately need her. {{{Lolamako}}} I'm crossing my fingers for you and your Patrick.

-JK

[lolamako]

Thanks guys, its easy to start to go off the deep end. Im trying to keep it together, until I can talk to the Dr. I am writing down my questions as they come to mind, I tend to get distracted and forget to ask important things.

I really really appreciate hearing everyones kind words. It makes me cry to think that people who I dont really *know* can offer such heartfelt support, people who Ill probably never meet...

Its been a rough day, my anti-vegan, well more aptly anti-lolamako-you need to get your life together-your almost 26-itll be to late, dad popped up with a "friendly" call. I couldve handled it better if my tolerance for taking a beating was not worn down to nothing.

I know that sometimes when someone is posting about a rough time I dont all ways respond, but my thoughts are with them, so thanks everyone, and big hugs back. Things will work out. One way or another.

[misanthropy]

*HUGS*

You ARE a great person for everything you've done for your animals. Don't ever doubt that. Not once. Not ever.

Is there a local rescue group or AR group that you could solicit for veterinary donations?

*sending positive thoughts and vibes*

[mamaquilla]

hugs lolamako and to patrick too

[lolamako]

Thanks everyone, heres whats happening: One I am feeling more optimistic. They did a aspirate of his liver and the results will be in tomarrow. They did a ultra sound of his Gi track and all except his liver was normal. They think that he has Fatty Liver, why? Who knows, it can be from pretty much anything, including a underlying illness.

He is taking 1 ml of Metroclopramide 3 times a day for nausea and vomiting.

1/4 of one 10mg tab of pepcid ac once a day.

and 1/2 tab of cyproheptadine twice a day.

he got his first doses this afternoon and he attempted to eat around 4:45pm, not enough so I forced about 2-3 T of Hill A/D wet food and some special milk called Clinicare R.

She said to give him 48 hours, shell call me tomarrow with the results and well see how he does over the weekend. They are a emergency hospital also so theyll be there 24/7.

Crossing my fingers that we wont have to do a feeding tube and more tests.....

{{{hugs to all}}}}}}}

[misanthropy]

That does sound more positive than FIP. I hope that everything goes well for you and Patrick.

*HUGS*!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[bluedawg]

lolamako, the site went down last night when i was reading this thread and trying to reply to it. sorry i haven't said more before now, but i want you to know i've been thinking of you LOTS. i'm glad they're getting some answers, and there's a plan in place. i hope you know more soon, and i hope patrick improves soon. i know how scary this is and i'm wishing both of you lots of luck and sending lots of love. :heart: you're doing all the right things, and you're an awesome kitty mom!!! please keep us posted!

[lolamako]

He is still not eating.. the Dr. said to give it 48 hours, but in the meantime (is that one word???) to keep force feeding him. Which makes him very unhappy. And a unhappy stressed out cat will not eat, so I feel like Im in this messed up loop.

Its hard, I want to give him his meds and *poof* all better. Which is unrealistic, I know.

Hes doing this wierd thing with his tongue, like it wont work right. I dunno. I have to talk to the Dr. She called about 3 hours before she said she would and I was not home.

I feel like its coming down to the wire for putting in a stomach tube.

I wish I knew what is causing this, the reasons for fatty liver are so varied.

[herbi]

:( Sorry you're still having it so tough, lolamako. Sometimes cats do a weird tongue thing when they're nauseous, which is probably the case if Patrick's liver is screwed up at the moment (also explains inappetance and vomiting). Hence the Reglan (metoclopramide). I definitely understand feeling like force-feeding is only stressing him out more, but it's SO important, and in my experience, cats who are being force-fed WILL start to eat on their own as soon as their appetite returns, even if they hate hate hate the force-feedings. So please don't feel like you're screwing up. Keep us posted!
*hug*

[lolamako]

Thanks Herbi, its good to hear that. It takes hearing it so many times to aleviate some of the stress, He "allowed" it tonight after I let him get good and hungry. He jumped on the stool next to me a few minutes ago, yesterday he couldnt get on the couch. To love me, I said "aww, patrick I thought you were gonna hate me forevers"

I dont hate force feeding him, hes pretty mellow, I just want it to WORK NOW!!!!

I hope hope hope there is no other caues of the HL.

[misanthropy]

*hugs* Still thinking about you and Patrick.

[lolamako]

hope Im not speaking to soon......MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ME! Patrick attempted to eat dry food on his own, he got up and went to the breakfast dishes and at a little!!

I hope and pray that all you other animals moms and dads are doing great also!

[misanthropy]

Yay! I'm so glad! That's the best christmas present ever! :)

[bird]

hope Im not speaking to soon......MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ME! Patrick attempted to eat dry food on his own, he got up and went to the breakfast dishes and at a little!!Yay! :sunny:

[misanthropy]

How is Patrick (and everyone else) doing?