Qualms for the Poor

[Waker]

I did my best to find this topic elsewhere, but my best isn't good enough.

How do people feel about giving money to homeless beggars? I find that it's quite a difficult dilemma. On the one hand you don't want to be a compassionless miser, but on the other you don't want to be an enabler (for drug and alcohol addictions, which, let's face it, is usually the case) or feel like a sucker for having your good intentions being taken advantage of.

It's not as if there isn't help available. There are food stamps, cash subsidies, shelters, all manner of help if it's sought out. Then again, these are only my impressions and I've never had to be homeless before.

I even hear that there are professional panhandlers that make a decent living on begging for change, which sounds like a fairly cushy job if not for the sacrifice of dignity (although how many jobs don't require you to sacrifice some level of dignity).

I also wonder how much this giving makes it primarily a problem for naive, bleeding-heart individuals as opposed to a collective, societal problem that the state might better address.. A cold perspective, perhaps.

Personally, I whether or not I give out change depends on my outlook for that particular day, and the vibe I receive from the person asking me.

I think the most I ever gave was a dollar to a guy with a sign that read: Fuck You Give Me A Dollar, which you have to admire.

[downwithapathy]

I've read a fairly compelling case for giving larger cash donations to individuals rather than a constant stream of smaller handouts. If I give a person in need $15, that person will still be in need. The next week, I give $15 again, and again the next week and again the next week. The person is just treading financial water and cannot break even, let alone get ahead. I've read that a wiser donation would be at least $200, or ideally an amount that will allow said person to make real progress toward catching up, say a month's rent. I'm not suggesting you give give $200+ to some stranger on the street, but that a well chosen large donation may be much more helpful to an individual than a string of smaller donations (which don't really help the individual to break his/her dependence on others). That said, I'm still waiting for the job security. I don't give money to anyone but my grandma these days. <- not quite but almost on topic

[Waker]

That's the other thing. If I was making more than subsistence wages due to underemployment, this wouldn't be such a dilemma. But I still can't help but feel a tinge of guilt when I exit a grocery store and some homeless person is rummaging through the trash. And then I begin to resent that person for making me feel guilty for taking care of my own well-being, and then I cycle back to additional guilt for feeling such resentment, and so on.

[KaliMama]

but on the other you don't want to be an enabler (for drug and alcohol addictions, which, let's face it, is usually the case)

I'd be interested to know how much objective truth there is to that generalization. Judging by the people that I see, I'd guess mental illness before drug addiction. Whether the mental illness comes before or after the homelessness is another story.

Maybe it's just me. Generalizations make me uncomfortable. In general. :p

[Waker]

Are we talking about people who approach us on the street for change? Statistics seem to vary widely (which is why I hesitate to post any), but it appears there are significantly more substances abusers than people who are mentally ill (and surely there's some overlap as well, substance abuse often leading to mental health problems, and vice versa).

As far as the homeless population generally, that would encompass not only people on the street or in shelters, but people living in cars or staying on friends' couches. Many are even employed.

In terms of panhandlers though, we should at least be able to agree that a large portion are substance abusers, and enabling such abuse poses a moral dilemma.

[nauthiz]

I found a study from here in Chicago a while back that found the following:

- You can make a lot of money at begging, but few people use it as a primary source of income. Begging tends to be looked down upon within the homeless community.
- Carrying significant amounts of cash is dangerous for homeless folks, so those who do beg mostly don't do it for very long at a time since this means marking oneself as a target for robbery.
- As soon as they're done, they resolve the 'carrying cash' situation by converting the money to some sort of durable good.
- This generally takes the form of a bottle of MD 20/20 or similar.

[squirrel]

I donate to actual shelters, etc, but I'm sorry to say I'm too afraid to give money to people on the street. :( I have big time fear of strangers.
But I did give some to a man who had a dog with him, once, and I was on my way to an errand when I gave it to him, and said if he was still there when I was done, I was going to stop and buy his dog some food, but he was gone when I went back. :umm:

[gladcow]

Living in a warm weather climate, we have our share of panhandlers. I tend to give only food. I generally have snacks in the car, and I'm happy to share.

[squirrel]

One man that was panhandling came up to my car when I was at a stoplight and started banging on my car and screaming at me. D: Scared the daylights out of me. :(

[vegankitty]

I used to be homeless. The money went to drugs, shelter and food for me and Chuckles. No one among the homeless I knew, addicts or not, looked down on those who did. If you're worried about enabling drug use- often if addicts can't make enough panhandling they turn to prostitution.

Mental illness and substance abuse go hand in hand. IDK about other mental illnesses but 50% of people with bipolar disorder have comorbid substance abuse problems.

It is not easy to get help- treatment programs having waiting lists- and if you have a comorbid mental illness it is even harder to find a place. And f you are female it is almost impossible. Shelters are dangerous. When I went to rehab I was discharged to the street because no aftercare program had space for me due to my combination of problems. Luckily a friend took me in. Many homeless people lack the documentation necessary to get things like welfare and food stamps. And you get about $120 a month in food stamps, $87 dollars every two weeks if they don't give you tent assistance (which is $215 a month) $50 if you do. So many panhandler are already recieving social services, but it is not enough. There is hardly any housing available unless you have AIDS (and even then you have to be a certain level of sick) or children.

Drug addiction is a disease. If you are living on the street it is often the only comfort an certainty you have.

As far as professional panhandlers, yes, they exist but they are more like the mythical welfare queen, drinking champagne and driving a caddy.

As far as the state taking car of the homeless, states have been cutting back on services for the homeless and passing the responsibility on to private agencies.

[vegankitty]

Couldn't edit to add this- $120 a month in food stamps for a homeless person doesn't go far. Without a kitchen, you are limited to food that is ready to eat. When I got food stamps I got $111 a month. And because I had food I would share with others who didn't.

I think with homeless people there seems to be a big tendency to blame the victim. Except for kids who take off for adventures no one says, gee, being a drug addict, living on the street and begging for money sounds so much easier than getting a job. I have had friends beaten to death, raped and set on fire.

Stats on comorbidity of mental illness and substance abuse: http://www.drugabuse.gov/ResearchReports/comorbidity/whyoccur.html

This is a topic dear to my heart. I have been there. It saddens me that otherwise compassionate people can be so judgemental about the homeless.

[squirrel]

{{{vegankitty}}}

[gladcow]

A good friend of mine used to be homeless, and his stories of that time have really stuck with me. He just needed someone to help.

Being someone with mental illness, I know that there by the grace of humanity go I. And, to be honest, sometimes that is too scary for me to think about. And so I don't look.

VK, thank you for telling what you know.

[Dugan]

VK, thank you for telling what you know.
Yes.

[vegankitty]

Hey, I'm lucky. I broke the cycle. It breaks my heart when I see people I used to know still living out there. My ex from before I got clean is still out- he is a mess. It did teach me to be grateful for small things that aren't really so small- like a fridge with food and a comfy bed. Although sometimes I need reminding.

[Waker]

This is a topic dear to my heart. I have been there. It saddens me that otherwise compassionate people can be so judgemental about the homeless.

Do you mean that as a general statement, or was it something I said?

[vegankitty]

General statement.

[Waker]

Another tough one is when someone will ask for a dollar expressly so that they may spend it on a hamburger. It's hard to explain to the person how it opposes your principles while they're going hungry. Sometimes I'll offer a something I have on hand, like a piece of fruit or a Clif bar, but much of the time they don't seem very grateful when they receive wholesome food.

The other day though, I was in a 7-11 (I can withdraw cash for free at their ATMs with my credit union card) and a homeless lady asked if I'd buy her a fruit salad, which I was happy to do, and found the request refreshing, quite frankly.

[vegankitty]

Matybe you could donate food to a food bank? I know they have been low on food to give out because more people are using them and less people are donating. If you do remember not everyone getting foo there with have cooking facilities. I used to get grtoceries at a church and I often gavre stuff to the elderry because I had nowhere to cook.

If I give someone money or food it's with no expectation of anything and no strings. I understand you don't want your money to go to buy animal products but unless you only shop at all vegan stores and buy from all vegan companies, some of your money is already going to pay for animal products.

When I was homeless a gy offered to buy me a 99 cent burger from Wendy's. I asked him if he'd buy wme a baked potato insyead-it was the same price. I told him I didn't eat meat-he got insulted and didn't get me anything. :shrug: When people gave me meat I'd give it to someone else.

[nauthiz]

I think for me it's a question of not wanting to be responsible for or in control of the entire planet. In general, whether or not I give something to someone is my karma but what they do with it is not my karma.

[vegankitty]

I thought you didn't believe in karma? ;)

[Waker]

I think for me it's a question of not wanting to be responsible for or in control of the entire planet. In general, whether or not I give something to someone is my karma but what they do with it is not my karma.

The results of your actions are your karma. That's what karma is.

[vegankitty]

Well then every time you by a product made by a nonvegan company from a nonvegan store you are supporting animal exploitation of some kind.

Giving to someone in need is supposed to be about them; not you. Give people food if you don't want to give them money but don't expect them to be super grateful that you gave them something other than what they asked for. Many homeless people are actually grateful; if they aren't so what? Are you giving food to them so they can eat or so you can have someone be grateful to you and feel good about yourself?

I'm sorry- you first say you don't want to give people money because you don't trust them and believe it is easy for them to get help. You don't find them grateful enough when you give them food instead of money and you don't want to give them money to spend as they want. That sounds to me like it's more about you than really helping anyone.

[nauthiz]

I thought you didn't believe in karma? ;)

I think the (orthodox) Buddhist concept of karma is a great and useful moral concept.

What I don't believe in is that weird new agey trying-to-pass-passive-aggressiveness-off-as-a-supernatural-orchestrating-principle-of-the-universe concept of karma.

[nauthiz]

The results of your actions are your karma. That's what karma is.

Wrong karma. :)

(ETA: In the original Pali, kamma translates as "act", in the sense of things you do actively. It very specifically means the action itself and the spirit in which it was done and the intentions behind it. To the extent that it relates to spirit and intentions, direct consequences can play into karma but the results of any volitional actions are not karma, they are vipaka.

The way karma is popularly understood by a lot of westerners is largely syncretic retelling of the Christian concept of retributive justice.)

[vegankitty]

I think the (orthodox) Buddhist concept of karma is a great and useful moral concept.

What I don't believe in is that weird new agey trying-to-pass-passive-aggressiveness-off-as-a-supernatural-orchestrating-principle-of-the-universe concept of karma.


Trying to pass off passive- aggressiveness? Explain more fully please!

[Waker]

Well then every time you by a product made by a nonvegan company from a nonvegan store you are supporting animal exploitation of some kind.

Giving to someone in need is supposed to be about them; not you. Give people food if you don't want to give them money but don't expect them to be super grateful that you gave them something other than what they asked for. Many homeless people are actually grateful; if they aren't so what? Are you giving food to them so they can eat or so you can have someone be grateful to you and feel good about yourself?

I'm sorry- you first say you don't want to give people money because you don't trust them and believe it is easy for them to get help. You don't find them grateful enough when you give them food instead of money and you don't want to give them money to spend as they want. That sounds to me like it's more about you than really helping anyone.

You misunderstand me. When I say they seem ungrateful, I don't mean grateful to me, I only mean that they don't actually seem interested in what I've given them much of the time, like they could take it or leave it, like the act is entirely futile.

I do buy from non-vegan companies and stores, but that doesn't increase the demand for animal products. The companies profit, but companies are largely what consumers make of them. I figure if everyone did as I did, there wouldn't be a problem, which sounds like karmically appropriate behavior.

Now, the reason I have these qualms about giving to the poor is because ultimately the motivation for doing so at times seems self-serving, like it's an act to make the giver feel better about themselves or assuage their guilty consciences than an act that is truly beneficial, either individually for the homeless person, or for society generally. This is hardly my final position on the matter, but the consideration does enter my head from time to time, hence my interest in discussing the topic.

[nauthiz]

Trying to pass off passive- aggressiveness? Explain more fully please!

It's glorifying revenge and reward. The bad thing is made OK because another bad thing will happen later. The good thing has strings attached so that it becomes a transaction rather than a gift.

That's not ethics; it's conceit in a fancy hat.

[vegankitty]

I don't see the moral difference between giving an individual money they then use to buy an animal product and giving your money to a company that uses it's money to make more animal products or pay employees who most likely are consuming animal products or shareholders who also will most likely buy animal products. Either way your money is at some point most likely going to contribute to animal exploitation at one point or another.

And as far as not knowing if giving to a homeless person is going to help them individually or society as a whole; again that is about you. Whether or not you give a dollar to a homeless person is not going to have a huge effect on either society or on that individual. Not giving them money is not going to make either their problems or society's go away. But giving it to them will at least bring a moment of happiness to them and possibly to you. Or you could volunteer your time to help a homeless organization in some way.

[vegankitty]

It's glorifying revenge and reward. The bad thing is made OK because another bad thing will happen later. The good thing has strings attached so that it becomes a transaction rather than a gift.

That's not ethics; it's conceit in a fancy hat.


Okay- that's what I was getting at in my previous post about making about oneself rather than the other person. And in my above post too.

[Ariann]

This is a really interesting conversation. I have thought about this issue a lot and have a couple thoughts to share.

Is it wrong that giving is at least a little bit about the giver? From my point of view, I have an obligation to fulfill in giving to the poor (the hungry, the homeless, what have you) and like any other obligation, I have an interest in fulfilling it WELL. That might mean giving in a way that avoids causing shame, it might mean giving in a way I think is most efficacious in terms of alleviating poverty long-term as a society or alleviating a single individual's hunger or need to self-medicate right this moment, or any other number of factors. My ability to give in a way I consider good is intimately tied to my evaluation of myself as a moral actor - not only is there nothing wrong with that, but that's essential to the way people operate in the world. If you're engaged in some kind of relationship, there's no way to take out one of the parties (the giver, in this case) or the moral issues that come along with a decision to give.

Along those lines I have a certain hierarchy of giving. I give primarily to organizations that tackle hunger and homelessness on a systemic level, either internationally or domestically (at least part of the time - few organizations are engaged solely in political action aimed at eradicating poverty, but good organizations do a mix of that and other on-the-ground activities). After that I give to local organizations involved in "band-aid" work - feeding the people who are hungry RIGHT NOW, housing the people who need shelter RIGHT NOW, rather than overarching systemic problems. This would include soup kitchens and homeless shelters, although in our area it's not so much real homeless shelters, but faith-based temporary housing initiatives (usually housing people in houses of worship or transitional housing - aimed primarily at single women). To those organizations I mostly give money, but sometimes also give time and goods.

Lastly, I give to people on the street in a variety of ways. If I walk in the city I usually carry a five or a ten or a twenty and will just give all of it to one person. I don't know if it's true that a twenty-dollar bill to one person will do more good than giving out dollar bills to twenty different people, but it sort of strikes me that way. Sometimes I have bought people food, sometimes I have given food I had (I used to pass the same guy every day on my drive and I would always get stuck in traffic near him, so I made him a pb&j and gave it to him each day), although not everyone I've offered food to has accepted. I have not bought people meat, but have given people money who said they were going to go and buy a hamburger. I give preference in giving to people who claim hunger (based on a Jewish ethic that says if you fail to immediately feed someone who claims hunger and then they starve to death you are responsible for their death).

The most amazing thing I ever saw walking in NYC was a woman who passed a homeless and clearly mentally ill (or high) man who had no shoes on and she went into a store nearby and bought him a pair of sturdy slippers. He was so out of it he couldn't even acknowledge that she had done that. That really moved me. The fact that those most in need probably can't even get it together enough to beg is something to think about (and also why giving just to those who ask is a bad strategy overall).

When giving to organizations, I investigate the organization - I want to know they are efficient and putting the money to the most efficacious use. But when giving to individuals, I don't ask questions, and I give without worrying about how they're going to use the money. My obligation is to give as well as I can, not to manage a stranger's life. I have no idea what life is like on the streets and all I can imagine about it is awful - I am in no place to judge what people decide to do with what little they have, but I am in a place to donate to organizations that help to provide a way out when people are ready for it.

[Ariann]

Now, the reason I have these qualms about giving to the poor is because ultimately the motivation for doing so at times seems self-serving

Well, perhaps it mostly is for most people. But I don't think we should have such a hang-up about doing things (that are in fact good) that make us feel good - like just because you have a problem allowing yourself to feel good for making correct moral decisions (b/c doing the right thing should feel difficult or bad or something?) doesn't mean you should therefore not make that decision in order to avoid the good feeling. Yeah, doing nice things makes you feel good (which is helpful, because it makes us do more of them). Sometimes you do nice things ONLY because it feels good. But are they not nice things, then?

[Ariann]

P.S. I understand that each individual's giving is a tiny drop in a huge ocean, but the same can be said of every positive action we take in the world. We should still do it. I don't consider my giving to be a symbolic act (like some people consider veganism - b/c one vegan makes practically no difference in terms of animal's suffering). I consider it a real act, done primarily out of a sense of obligation and secondarily out of a sense of compassion, and I want to do it in a way that causes real benefit, even if that benefit is short-term. I consider it one of the core values of my life and I've worked up to giving 10% of my income to what I consider "giving for the creation of justice" (most of that money goes to organizations that serve the poor, some of it goes to other justice-motivated organizations like Planned Parenthood). Some day I hope to work up to 20% (when I don't have tuition to pay!). And I do think giving money regularly is in the long run way more helpful than giving time or goods.

[gladcow]

as the member of a board of a nonprofit that serves a disadvantaged population I can say money goes MUCH further than goods or time. In kind giving is second best.

[Ariann]

as the member of a board of a nonprofit that serves a disadvantaged population I can say money goes MUCH further than goods or time. In kind giving is second best.

Yeah, that's what I've heard from everyone I've spoken to who does this work professionally.

[vegankitty]

Ariann, I wasn't saying giving to someone because it makes you feel good in part is bad-I was saying that making conditions on what the money goes for or expecting a certain amount of gratitude in return makes giving more about the giver and I don't think it should be that way.

This is for me in regards to giving money to an individual; not an organization-in that case I think it's better to investigate and make sure that your money isn't going to pay huge salaries and overhead.

FWIW, even though I was using money for drugs, if someone gave me a big bill-$20 or higher, I would use what I needed to not be sick that night and the next morning and buy myself food, health care stuff or sometimes something cute from the 99 cent store.I had Chuckles with me at the time and I never had to buy cat food-in fact I got so much I gave the extra to a rescue. I had one guy who bought me soup and tea every day, an OJ, deli turkey for Chuckles and a bottle of water for him. And often he'd put a five in the bag too.

[Ariann]

VK, I was more responding to Waker's concerns than yours. I think you and I are basically in agreement about this.

[Krrez]

I just wanted to thank VK for sharing her first-hand experiences.

Since I'm posting, I'll say I get where Waker is coming from. Many times I've thought that I'd rather give someone food directly than perhaps pay for their habit, but now reading VK's story, I think I don't particularly mind if I give someone money and they use to not be sick or feel a little better about their situation. (I would prefer it not be spent on drugs or meat... But eh.)

I'd still prefer to put my money into organizations going for systemic change, but one of my favorite anecdotes is the one about the man throwing starfish that had washed up on the shore back into the ocean and when another person says "There are hundreds, you'll never make a difference" the man picks one up, throws it in, and says "To that one, it made a difference."

In short, I am unemployed and not giving anyone anything.

[Miso Vegan]

I don't particularly mind if I give someone money and they use to not be sick or feel a little better about their situation. (I would prefer it not be spent on drugs or meat... But eh.)


I agree. Temporary relief from their misery may be what gets them to a place where they can move out of drug addiction/homelessness.