Formula

[Vegan Heathen]

This is a super important topic for me, as I am due fairly soon. As I'm sure most of you know, in the US, there are NO Vegan infant formulas available. All of the soy/organic ones contain D3, from lanolin. :( I need to do more research, but it's also concerning that most of the soy formulas at the store have corn syrup listed as the first ingredient! This does not sound right.

I am planning on breastfeeding 100% of the time, but as we know, breastfeeding is more difficult than most think, and things don't always go smoothly. I would like to have an emergency formula to give him in case we have issues with my production, etc etc. And I want to have it ready for the birth, because if I'm not producing, I don't want the hospital to do something goofy and give him cow's milk, my fear.

So I want to hear all of your thoughts regarding the matter. What did those of you who have children do about formula? Does anyone know anything about making your own? Also, there is great debate over giving infants a lot of soy.

I already know about breast milk banks, I'm more specifically interested in formula information here. Also, I know there is a vegan brand, the only one I can find information about online, in the UK by Heinz, but for the life of me, I cannot find a way to buy it online and have it shipped here. I'm almost wanting to ask someone who lives in the UK if they could ship it to me, and I can pay them, if that's my only option.

HELP! Thanks.

[dropscone]

I'll happily ship you some if it comes down to it :)

[Vegan Heathen]

Thank you so much!!!!! :kiss:

[rubydreamer]

Maybe I'm shtoopid to pregnancy (being that I have never been pregnant) but how come producing milk of your own is a concern? I thought all women produce breast milk like, really well, except unhealthy peoples. If yur vegan you must be uber healthy! ^__^

As far as formulas... hell I don't know. It's kinda shocking and stupid that the US and UK doesn't have any pure vegan formulas out there. =(

[Miso Vegan]

a small %age of women have trouble breastfeeding. Usually, the obstacles can be overcome with a good lactation consultant or midwife.

Vegan Heathen, my message to you:
Don't plan on failure. Having formula on hand is a huuuuuge reason women give up on breastfeeding (which is why formula companies send home so many free samples) rather than persevere to overcome any obstacles.

As someone once said to me: Don't plan to try to breastfeed, plan to breastfeed.

[Vegan Heathen]

Miso, I am planning to breastfeed, but sh*t happens, and I want to be prepared, you know? I always like to know all my options. Plus I'd like to see a discussion on why there is NOT ONE Vegan infant formula in our entire country.

[atouria]

I'm with Miso Vegan! I never thought about 'what if I can't breastfeed.' Although, I can understand wanting to be prepared.

We are designed to breastfeed! What other way would babies have been fed before formulas were around?

While you are in the hospital ask to see one of the lactation consultants. Even if you think breastfeeding is going perfectly, please still get one to come see you! I thought I was doing pretty good, then the lactation consultant came in and showed me all kinds of tips and tricks! My whole breastfeeding world was 100% better after seeing her! I only thought I was doing good before, now I feel like a pro. :)

Get it in your head that you will breastfeed. It's the absolute best thing you can do for your baby - well, that and not mutilating it at birth. ;) A book that really helped me, and I read it before the baby was born, was So That's What They're There For (http://www.amazon.com/Thats-What-Theyre-Definitive-Breastfeeding/dp/159337285X/ref=sr_1_1/103-0480727-2955802?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176572808&sr=8-1). It's a fun read and has great advice.

:baby:

[Vegan Heathen]

Rubydreamer, I had NO idea until I became pregnant that breastfeeding was such a giant undertaking. I thought you just put the baby there and everything worked out. I still have a ton of learning to do, but I hear stories from many women (and yes vegan women) who have had issues for many different reasons. You have to feed way more often, we're talking every 2 hours, all this stuff I never knew about. Plus if, goddess forbid, something goes wrong, and the baby has to stay at the hospital for a short while, you have to have something available otherwise they are going to feed them who knows what.

[veganshawn]

Rubydreamer, I had NO idea until I became pregnant that breastfeeding was such a giant undertaking. I thought you just put the baby there and everything worked out. I still have a ton of learning to do, but I hear stories from many women (and yes vegan women) who have had issues for many different reasons. You have to feed way more often, we're talking every 2 hours, all this stuff I never knew about. Plus if, goddess forbid, something goes wrong, and the baby has to stay at the hospital for a short while, you have to have something available otherwise they are going to feed them who knows what.

Do you have a breast pump? Because if "insert whatever you believe in here" forbid that something happens and your child has to stay then you can have your breast milk ready.

It sound like to me that you are scared and thus making excuses and gearing up for failure. Just think your breast are for the baby to eat from, nature didn't make it to difficult, most women that I have ever know that gave up did so because of selfish reasons not because there where issues with the baby. And yes you will have to feed you baby often, but that is part of the deal.
If you want to truly raise your child vegan from birth breast feeding is the only option.

Good luck

[Vegan Heathen]

I thought in my OP I made a pretty strong statement that I was planning on breastfeeding 100% of the time. I do have it in my head, and I don't plan on failure.

Let me give a concrete example of what I'm talking about. A good (Vegan) friend of mine had a horrible birth (through no fault of her own). The baby had to be taken to another hospital for something like a week. They were separated. She was totally out of it. She luckily had a husband who was at the other hospital making sure they weren't giving the baby cow's milk.

So what do you suggest be done in an instance like that??

[veganshawn]

I thought in my OP I made a pretty strong statement that I was planning on breastfeeding 100% of the time. I do have it in my head, and I don't plan on failure.

Let me give a concrete example of what I'm talking about. A good (Vegan) friend of mine had a horrible birth (through no fault of her own). The baby had to be taken to another hospital for something like a week. They were separated. She was totally out of it. She luckily had a husband who was at the other hospital making sure they weren't giving the baby cow's milk.

So what do you suggest be done in an instance like that??

Do dwell on something bad that happened to someone else. As I said get a breast pump and use it if possible, if for some reason something extreme happens, breast feed as soon as you can.
I understand you are scared but honestly don't dwell on what can happen that is bad but focus on the good.

[atouria]

Oh, please talk to more people! I don't feed him every 2 hours! At some points I was feeding every hour - when he was first born and getting my milk to come in. I feed on demand, so the time frame varies, but it's more often during the day than at night. For the first 2 weeks I felt like I was nursing constantly, but my baby's well being was worth the sacrafice.

Now, though, he eats every 3-4 hours at night. Sometimes it's only 2 hours, but not often. Babies are just like us, their hunger isn't always on a schedule and they don't always want a full meal. So even if your baby does breastfeed every hour the first week or so, you won't neccessarily be nursing him a long time each feeding.

The book I linked will really help you. She doesn't glaze over the tough parts, because it isn't as easy or natural as just putting the baby to your boob each and every time. Well, I swear my baby taught me because he latched on right away, but it's not always that way. A week into it I realized that I had been letting him get away with a bad latch on the right side. My nipple became sore and cracked and it HURT when he'd feed on that side. However, I stuck with it and made 100% sure that he had a good latch on that side Every Single Time. It took about another week for it to heal and not make me cringe. It was completely worth it. Now I can nurse him on either side and literally fall asleep and everything is just fine. :)

[atouria]

I thought in my OP I made a pretty strong statement that I was planning on breastfeeding 100% of the time. I do have it in my head, and I don't plan on failure.

Let me give a concrete example of what I'm talking about. A good (Vegan) friend of mine had a horrible birth (through no fault of her own). The baby had to be taken to another hospital for something like a week. They were separated. She was totally out of it. She luckily had a husband who was at the other hospital making sure they weren't giving the baby cow's milk.

So what do you suggest be done in an instance like that??

In an instant like that I'd go with the the baby!!! If I absolutely can't, I'd rent a hospital grade pump and pump, pump, pump and send it to the hospital where my baby is! The nurses will feed your baby the breast milk.

[atouria]

Oh and I think shawn means doN'T dwell on it. ;)

[Vegan Heathen]

Geez, by most of the responses, I'm almost sorry I posted this here. I do not feel most have focused on my initial question and instead are trying to tell me why I'm ready for failure. This is simply not true.

And Shawn, you keep referring to a breast pump. You have not addressed the specific story I posted. A REAL story. If I listened to you and didn't dwell, if I were in my friend's situation and wasn't prepared AT ALL, the hospital would give him cow's milk.

[atouria]

I acknowledged the fact that you want to be prepared and I said I understand, which I do. :) I honestly believe that mindset is a big part of it.

If something like your friend's situation happens and the hosptial staff sees that you are Bound and Determined to breastfeed and won't take no for an answer, I guarantee that they will try much harder to make that happen for you. So, if you get your mind set on it, your chances of success will be much higher.

I really hope you don't regret posting here, we are honestly trying to help.

[MercurialMary]

So I want to hear all of your thoughts regarding the matter.

You did ask...


Also, I know there is a vegan brand, the only one I can find information about online, in the UK by Heinz, but for the life of me, I cannot find a way to buy it online and have it shipped here.

This place (http://www.auravita.com/products/AURA/HENZ10602.asp) ships to the US.

[Foxy]

I really did like Shawn's advice, and it's a perfect idea if you ever come across a situation where you have to put your baby in daycare or something (I worked at a daycare and was always dealing with breast milk in little bags, so it's not unusual), so just file it away in your memory and it may come in handy. I think you could also apply his advice in the instance that your baby has to be hospitalized and you are fully conscious and able to make decisions. I am guessing that what you are trying to say is that if there were some emergency when you have the baby where he/she is taken away from you to be cared for without your knowledge, that's where the breast pump will not be of any help. In this case, since I don't know much about vegan formulas, you may have to cut your losses as the worst-case scenario. However, don't discourage, as I said, I've never experienced this, but I really do want to help if I can. The best advice I can give would be to speak to the hospital staff about your concerns, and just see if there is anything that could be done in the case of an emergency. I truly hope and believe that everything will go fine for the birth of your baby, but just in case, I hope you can find a back-up. Good luck!

[Vegan Heathen]

Yes I did ask for thoughts regarding the matter. I asked specific questions, too. I do not believe I asked anything that warranted people making judgement calls about me being "scared", "making excuses", "gearing up for failure". I think I have been clear regarding my concerns.

And, Shawn, we are all Vegans and come here for support and advice. I'm not here nor was I asking for a man to explain to me how women give up breastfeeding for selfish reasons when I never even eluded to the fact that I would give it up. Nor was I looking to hear that I have to breastfeed often as part of the deal by someone who will NEVER ONCE have to breastfeed in his entire life.

As far as "If you want to truly raise your child vegan from birth breast feeding is the only option", I know you're a self proclaimed sergent for the vegan police and all, but that's not your call to make. Hence why I was inquiring about VEGAN formula for emergencies.

[Vegan Heathen]

I plan on having a breast pump. Thank you MercurialMary for the link. Wow, it's 31 pounds just to have one unit shipped here! :o

[mamaquilla]

:happy: Oh excellent, I didnt know they made vegan formula, how awsome!
Vegan Heathen, may your breastfeeding experience go very smoothly!!!!! :happy:

[atouria]

I can't believe I'm about to do this, but... I'm going to take up for Shawn. :rolleyes:

He never said that you would give up, he was specifically referring to other wom that he has known in the past. He said that it "sounds like" you are gearing up for failure, not that you are looking for an excuse to give up.

One of the great breastfeeding books out there is written by a man, Jack Newman (http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Breastfeeding-Book-Answers-Problem-Solution/dp/0761529969/ref=sr_1_3/103-0480727-2955802?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176581644&sr=8-3). Dr. Sears is another man with helpful advice. It doesn't seem fair to attack shawn over his gender when he was honestly trying to be helpful.

I'm guessing that this my posting this is irrelevant, though. Since you haven't responded to any of my ideas or attempts at giving you helpful advice and books to boost your confidence on the matter.

At any rate, I am hopeful that you are successful in breastfeeding your baby.

[Vegan Heathen]

Atouria, you can go back and read, word for word, how Shawn addressed me. "It sound like to me that you are scared and thus making excuses and gearing up for failure." Why are you not chastising him for making judgment calls about my feelings and intentions when I posted very straightforward questions regarding vegan formula?

You're right, it is irrelevant, because I don't feel his irrelevant judgment calls even address my requests for information regarding vegan formula.

Thank you atouria for the positive information regarding breastfeeding, although I was more looking specifically for vegan formula information.
Thanks mamquilla and Foxy for your well wishes! :)

[atouria]

I did, in fact, go back to read it. The first 4 words, however jumbled, means just what they say, it sounds like it - to him.. not that you are making excuses, but that it seems that way from his perspective. To me, it reads like one of those statements that people use when they are trying to avoid an argument.. (this is NOT directed at you) for example. I feel like you threw your orange at me, not You threw your orange at me. If you can make sense out of my jumbledness. :p

I'll let shawn explain if he wants, that's just the way I took it, because he continued on with offering up help and possible solutions.

[Vegan Heathen]

Thanks for trying to explain atouria, but I get the sense this person is not trying to avoid an argument. I just recently came to this board, but it's easy to spot pot stirrers. And people who get off on stirring the pot are not helpful, they are devisive.

[MercurialMary]

I agree with you, autoria.

veganshawn is a father and would know about these issues and is, in his way, rooting for breastfeeding.

Vegan Heathen, even if he did not provide a solution regarding vegan formula, he had a right to his opinion. He is vegan, married to a great vegan and raising great vegan kids. He may not phrase things in the most pleasing way at times, but he does have valuable info to share, even if he is a man. ;)

You can't judge this board by some off-topic replies (and boy do we get off-topic at times! :rolleyes: ), and I guarantee no one here would ever judge you, because it's not that kind of place.

The people on VRF are supportive of so many people and helpful in so many issues, and there are endless threads that show that.

I'm sorry your visits are starting off bumpy.

[veganshawn]

Vegan heathen -

Sexism is not going to foster anything but hate. I will let your sexist remark slide. As someone pointed out I am a father of breastfeed children. I know what I am speaking about, I know because you have a vagina you automatically think that makes you an expert on babies, but as you said this is your first so please don't judge me when I do know what I am talking about.

As far as my comment about the only way in the USA right now to raise a vegan child is by breast feeding, there is no vegan formula on the market, I am not judging you if you end up not being able to breast feed and you to use formula I am explaining that don't be disappointed like I was when my ex gave up for her own selfish reasons and we tried to find vegan formula and came up empty. We choose soy formula because it was the closet to vegan we could find in America. If you can afford to pay air shipping from England for vegan formula on the off chance that you can't breastfeed then you are very lucky.

And I am sorry that you mistakenly think I am a "pot stirrer". Maybe someday you can stop judging me and listen to my advise, not as a man but as a fellow vegan who has been though a lot in his 35+ years. Hopefully you can work on your sexism, good luck with your child I wish you a 100% healthy and happy pregnancy and birth.

[veganshawn]

I can't believe I'm about to do this, but... I'm going to take up for Shawn. :rolleyes:

He never said that you would give up, he was specifically referring to other wom that he has known in the past. He said that it "sounds like" you are gearing up for failure, not that you are looking for an excuse to give up.

One of the great breastfeeding books out there is written by a man, Jack Newman (http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Breastfeeding-Book-Answers-Problem-Solution/dp/0761529969/ref=sr_1_3/103-0480727-2955802?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176581644&sr=8-3). Dr. Sears is another man with helpful advice. It doesn't seem fair to attack shawn over his gender when he was honestly trying to be helpful.

I'm guessing that this my posting this is irrelevant, though. Since you haven't responded to any of my ideas or attempts at giving you helpful advice and books to boost your confidence on the matter.

At any rate, I am hopeful that you are successful in breastfeeding your baby.

Thank you, I am glad that we can agree sometimes :)

[atouria]

:kiss:

[rubydreamer]

:S wow. how did it get so heated in here?? les' play nice. ^_^ I can understand Vegan Heathen's frustrations in not getting responses about something specific she had in mind and clearly stated, but also, I think it should be a little bit more calmly explained instead of that of defensiveness, because that makes everyone either edgy or forced to be careful with wording. =/

I think from what I can gather, since there is no vegan formula for vegan babies, any breastfeeding advices should be considered, otherwise I don't think you can really do anything about the formulas (unless you wanna make your own? I don't know how to do that tho XD)...

[veganshawn]

:S wow. how did it get so heated in here?? les' play nice. ^_^ I can understand Vegan Heathen's frustrations in not getting responses about something specific she had in mind and clearly stated, but also, I think it should be a little bit more calmly explained instead of that of defensiveness, because that makes everyone either edgy or forced to be careful with wording. =/

I think from what I can gather, since there is no vegan formula for vegan babies, any breastfeeding advices should be considered, otherwise I don't think you can really do anything about the formulas (unless you wanna make your own? I don't know how to do that tho XD)...

Yeah I left for a few hours and was kind of shocked to be attacked the way I was. The only advice that I can give and anyone else is that there is no vegan formula currently for sale in the US. On the off chance that there may be now I hope someone can post the information.

[QrkyMoon]

Can you pump breast milk before the baby is born? I thought that women started lactating right before... or would that take the colostrum? (sp?)

If so, maybe you could quell some of your fears by making sure you will produce enough milk, saving some in case the baby cannot nurse off of you right away, and also save you money (since you won't need to order from the UK).

note: I am not meaning this post to pick at you at all or continue not posting about formula, I think it's great that you're finding out about formula ahead of time just in case something happens.

[Vegan Heathen]

QrkyMoon, I'm not totally sure, but I've been told it's colostrum the first few days or so after giving birth.

On a different note, I always think it's interesting when the person who starts the attacking says he/she's attacked, but a lot of times that's the way it goes.

Anyway, I just got back from a Vegan Parent's meeting, where all of the women were sharing their stories of the difficulties they had breastfeeding. And yes, almost all the women had problems with this or that. And they wanted to tell me. Not to dwell on it, not to make excuses, not to set me up for failure, but to set me up for success. I am glad to have that support and information. I'm glad that some see the value in being prepared for anything.

[atouria]

Pretty sure I told you that it wasn't all peachy keen (and also shared my problems) and that I understand you wanting to be prepared. But I'm glad that you have support that you will acknowledge and accept.

OrkyMoon: Yes, it's colostum first and your milk can come in about 3-5 days after birth. I didn't lactate at all until the baby was born, but it is possible and some women do without trying with pumps. Usually it will take a baby (they have some major suction!) to get your milk going. Otherwise you'll need a hospital grade pump, not something you can just pick up in any old store.

[neverfeltbetter]

i think the the OP query on vegan formula *was* answered right away, though it may not have been what she was trying to hear, and certainly not coming from a man!

shawn was very helpful and way supportive during my pregnancy and while BFing. i would venture to say he knows about some lactation.

;)

[veganshawn]

i think the the OP query on vegan formula *was* answered right away, though it may not have been what she was trying to hear, and certainly not coming from a man!

shawn was very helpful and way supportive during my pregnancy and while BFing. i would venture to say he knows about some lactation.

;)

Well hopefully all soon to be breast feeding women have someone who supports and cares about them as much I do for you. :kiss:

[Miso Vegan]

I'm glad that some see the value in being prepared for anything.
Um, ouch. That was really an unnecessary barb. You have sooooo misunderstood our intent in this thread.

:will tiptoe carefully around Vegan Heathen from now on, lest I make another mistake:

[gladcow]

I breastfed my two kids. I was fairly lucky in that I didn't really have any problems starting. I did end up with clogged ducts along the way, but dealt with them without much incident. Both of my children breastfed past one year. Once, I bought a can of soy formula. We were leaving for one night and I wasn't sure if I had enough breastmilk pumped (although I loved my Avent pump I found myself with less extra milk with my second child). So I bought some formula as a back up so my baby would have somethig just in case. She didn't need to use the formula and it went in the cupboard. Later it was donated to a food drive. That is my experience with formula. I figured something (even something I felt was less than ideal) was better than nothing.

If I'm being completely honest, I believe nothing is 100% vegan. This place (veganism and this site) is not about perfection. Or personal purity. It's about striving to do your best in every situation. Personally, if I were to have another child and if I were to have problems breastfeeding (both VERY unlikely since we're not having more children) I know I could not afford to have soy formula shipped from a foreign country. So I would make do with what I could get near by. And it would be the right choice for me.

Vegan Heathen, I believe in your ability to make the right choice for you.

[dropscone]

Someone I went to school with could not breast feed. She had fully planned to, and was bitterly upset that, even with good consultants and every effort made, her own body prevented her from breastfeeding, something she hadn't expected at all. I can remember her saying "what's the good of these things if they can't do what they were put here to do!"

To me, Vegan Heathen looked in the original post like she wanted to cover every eventuality now, so that when she's going through the birth experience she won't have to worry so much because she'll know she's planned for any foreseen eventuality, even though hopefully those plans won't have to be put into action!

Vegan Heathen - I was going to suggest milk banks at first but I see you already covered that angle - is the issue with those that it takes a while to set something up?

As I said, I'm more than happy to ship you some vegan formula if I can find it here just in case there is a problem, which we all hope there won't be! :)

[Vegan Heathen]

Thank you gladcow and dropscone!!

[veganshawn]

If I'm being completely honest, I believe nothing is 100% vegan. This place (veganism and this site) is not about perfection. Or personal purity. It's about striving to do your best in every situation. Personally, if I were to have another child and if I were to have problems breastfeeding (both VERY unlikely since we're not having more children) I know I could not afford to have soy formula shipped from a foreign country. So I would make do with what I could get near by. And it would be the right choice for me.


I don't think this was aimed at me but at the same time I will chime in just in case. I did mention that if a person can't breast feed and has to use soy formula and that no one is judging them, but if a persons goal is to raise a child vegan from birth to be prepared to compromise when it comes to formula, because at the moment the only vegan formula is breast milk :)

[Miso Vegan]

To me, Vegan Heathen looked in the original post like she wanted to cover every eventuality now, so that when she's going through the birth experience she won't have to worry so much because she'll know she's planned for any foreseen eventuality, even though hopefully those plans won't have to be put into action!
I read it that way, too. But since you offered to ship formula, and since I could be of no other help specific to her request, I thought I'd offer another suggestion that may help her.
We all did, in fact. We all thought, gee, we can't help with the formula request, but we have other advice as moms (and a dad) who've been in her position that might be helpful. We have seen many mothers undermined by formula, and felt our own efforts undermined, AND we know some tricks to get around some breastfeeding issues, so we wanted to share some of our own thoughts and experiences and suggestions of a different sort. She chose to take our well-meaning (if ultimately unhelpful) contributions as - I'm not even sure what - an attack of her idea?
Frankly, I was hurt by her reaction. It's not much fun to think you're being helpful and have someone smack you down without so much as a "thanks but no thanks."

[veganshawn]

Someone I went to school with could not breast feed. She had fully planned to, and was bitterly upset that, even with good consultants and every effort made, her own body prevented her from breastfeeding, something she hadn't expected at all. I can remember her saying "what's the good of these things if they can't do what they were put here to do!"

:)

That is sad to hear about your friend, it is a really small percentage of women who can not breast feed, and it is always sad to hear when someone who really wants to but for medical reasons can not.

[gladcow]

I don't think this was aimed at me but at the same time I will chime in just in case. I did mention that if a person can't breast feed and has to use soy formula and that no one is judging them, but if a persons goal is to raise a child vegan from birth to be prepared to compromise when it comes to formula, because at the moment the only vegan formula is breast milk :)
shawn, I have never aimed a thing at you :D I was just trying to chime in in the most calm way possible. I thought the thread could use it.

[Dandelion]

shawn, I have never aimed a thing at you :D I was just trying to chime in in the most calm way possible. I thought the thread could use it.
i could see how he thought so since he is a sergeant and all. ;)

[veganshawn]

shawn, I have never aimed a thing at you :D I was just trying to chime in in the most calm way possible. I thought the thread could use it.

I didn't think so, I just wanted to make sure that people understand I wasn't trying to be militant vegan, breast feed or nothing :)

[veganshawn]

i could see how he thought so since he is a sergeant and all. ;)

Acutally I got a promotion to Chief of vegan police, just to lazy to update my profile :p

[Sunshine]

I'm not sure how very pregnant you are - but another suggestion I have is to attend a La Leche League meeting before your birth. I started attending when I was 6 months pregnant and there are some truly amazing women in my group. I didn't have any problems breastfeeding but I do think that I learned about all the potential problems I could have and knew where I could find help. Many of these women are now good friends of mine and I am sure that had I needed it (and I did - story follows) these women would have been glad to donate milk to me. (Illegal in Illinois, by the way).

After my birth at home, I had a retained placenta and was transported to the hospital. Long story short, the placenta had grown into a fibroid and 3 hours of operating and 4 blood transfusions later I was a-ok - but stuck in the hospital for 4 days with my baby at home. She was not allowed to be with me during non-visiting hours - which meant that every night I was alone without my little Sunray newborn. Newborns feed a lot and constantly. So every day she was with me all day breastfeeding - and then at night my husband went home with her and a friend set up this amazing underground railway of breastfeeding women. Every night the doorbell would ring and a different breastfeeding women (none of them my husband knew) would come to stay overnight with her child to breastfeed my daughter. My daughter slept with my husband and when the baby would cry - these women would come into the room - pick up the baby and nurse it - and then go back to the guest bedroom with their child. Meanwhile I pumped at night at the hospital to assure that my milk came in. When I got home - I took over full time nursing and had no problems at all. And so when I say that my daughters loves my milk best - I know she really can compare ;) !

I know this doesn't answer the formula question - but you're right that unexpected situations do indeed come up - and in some there may be a way around formula - such as this one. If however 100% vegan is the most important - I flunked that - I chose that breastmilk was most important - I know that not all of these women were vegan - but I also was not aware of any vegan formula at the time - although this was such a healthy and loving act for my child that this is the way I would have chosen to do it anyway.

[dropscone]

Wow, what an amazing story, Sunshine. That's so cool! :)

[Joda]

Sunshine, that was an incredible story!! :sunny:

Vegan Heathen,
I only wish I would have had the support that I see throughout this thread when I had my babies 16 and 18 years ago.
I was one of those women who was unable to breastfeed, not through lack of producing or trying, but through lack of emotional support.
Post pardum depression took me over and I felt forced to feed my babies formula... there was no-one to give me tips, no-one to talk to, no nurse or doctor available for couselling... nothing. I've regretted the lack of resources ever since.
I just wanted to say that if I would have been give the chance to read/hear the excellent and supportive advice from everyone on this thread, I would have gladly taken ALL of it. I truly admire comments made from autoria, shawn and miso... you are all fabulous!

Best wishes for you throughout your pregnancy and birth VH!

[Miso Vegan]

Sunshine, what a heartwarming story. Those women went above and beyond. :heart: :heart: :heart:

[neverfeltbetter]

omg what a story! i could only wish i could hear that more often, rather than the bf'ing horror stories that are all too common.

lets bring wet-nursing back! my sister said she would re-lactate for me if i was too ill or whatever. at the time i thought she was joking, but now i think i would do it!

[gladcow]

I always wished while weaning my kiddos that I had a place to send the excess milk I had pumped. Like a milk bank or something. I think the closest place when I researched with my last babe was in Denver or summat. Maybe I should start one!

[rubydreamer]

I'm glad that some see the value in being prepared for anything.

:umm:

[MercurialMary]

Oooo, I did something like that for my friend!

She had her son 3 months after I had my daughter, and she had to go on some really strong medications for several months soon after his birth and couldn't breastfeed. So I pumped extra for her son for bit, until she eventually transitioned him to formula. It was so great! No trouble at all, really.

The coolest part was that she asked me at all. I wouldn't have known how to offer, but somehow she just knew I would do it. My daughter and her son are super good friends, still!

[Joda]

That's really wonderful Merc/Mary! :)

[rubydreamer]

omg what a story! i could only wish i could hear that more often, rather than the bf'ing horror stories that are all too common.

lets bring wet-nursing back! my sister said she would re-lactate for me if i was too ill or whatever. at the time i thought she was joking, but now i think i would do it!

Hey that is a good suggestion! I wouldn't have ever thought of that!

[veganshawn]

Sunshine that is an amazing story, thank you for sharing. :)

[MissLovely]

OHSU takes breastmilk for the NICU.

[mamaquilla]

Oh my god Sunshine, what an amazing story, I cried!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for sharing!!!! :happy: :happy: :happy:

[atouria]

Sunshine, that is such an incredible act of kindness that those women bestowed on your family! You were so very fortunate!

MM, you rock!

[vegankitty]

I'm not sure how very pregnant you are - but another suggestion I have is to attend a La Leche League meeting before your birth. I started attending when I was 6 months pregnant and there are some truly amazing women in my group. I didn't have any problems breastfeeding but I do think that I learned about all the potential problems I could have and knew where I could find help. Many of these women are now good friends of mine and I am sure that had I needed it (and I did - story follows) these women would have been glad to donate milk to me. (Illegal in Illinois, by the way).

After my birth at home, I had a retained placenta and was transported to the hospital. Long story short, the placenta had grown into a fibroid and 3 hours of operating and 4 blood transfusions later I was a-ok - but stuck in the hospital for 4 days with my baby at home. She was not allowed to be with me during non-visiting hours - which meant that every night I was alone without my little Sunray newborn. Newborns feed a lot and constantly. So every day she was with me all day breastfeeding - and then at night my husband went home with her and a friend set up this amazing underground railway of breastfeeding women. Every night the doorbell would ring and a different breastfeeding women (none of them my husband knew) would come to stay overnight with her child to breastfeed my daughter. My daughter slept with my husband and when the baby would cry - these women would come into the room - pick up the baby and nurse it - and then go back to the guest bedroom with their child. Meanwhile I pumped at night at the hospital to assure that my milk came in. When I got home - I took over full time nursing and had no problems at all. And so when I say that my daughters loves my milk best - I know she really can compare ;) !

I know this doesn't answer the formula question - but you're right that unexpected situations do indeed come up - and in some there may be a way around formula - such as this one. If however 100% vegan is the most important - I flunked that - I chose that breastmilk was most important - I know that not all of these women were vegan - but I also was not aware of any vegan formula at the time - although this was such a healthy and loving act for my child that this is the way I would have chosen to do it anyway.

Wow , thats so cool!

My mom was one of those rare women who was medically unable to breastfeed.Something to do with her milk not having theproper nutrients.(Grandmom had the same problem.)

So novegan formula sucks , because if I ever have a baby there's a 50/50 chance I wouldn't be able to breastfeed.In that case , I would go with the soy formula closest to vegan.You have to do the best you can with what's available and what you can afford.

[Sunshine]

Oh my god Sunshine, what an amazing story, I cried!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Thank you for sharing!!!! :happy: :happy: :happy:

Yeah, I feel truly blessed - there are some really goodly people in this world. I'm glad you all thought this was as heartwarming as I thought it was.

[dropscone]

I thought I would update this, since it looks like Vegan Heathen hasn't been back for a while.

I sent some formula, just in case she gets rushed into intensive care or something (I don't think it was ever her intention to have formula to replace breastmilk for any length of time, as some people seemed to believe, just in case of emergencies), but I had bought 2 tubs and the weight restrictions, which I hadn't realised about, meant I could only send one at a time.

I tried to take the second back, but the place I got it from have a policy against refunding on food items, unopened or not. And the woman I spoke to made me feel utterly negligent for buying formula. Thank goodness I'm not a mother who cannot breastfeed, it seems the pendulum of societal judgement has really swung the other way since my mum's day :umm: Yes, breast is best, but don't heap shame on people's head for buying formula when you don't know their back story... anyway...

So, I had this extra formula, which I offered to send as well, but she thought one tub would be fine, as it lasts for about a week and a half. I did think of offering it on another board in case anyone needed it, but in the end, prompted by the difficulty of getting powdered normal soya milk, I've started cooking with it, and surprisingly it's not foul (I've heard normal formula is pretty disgusting) and makes a great addition to bread rolls! it's also quite good as a creamer in coffee and tea.

I'm not saying this is going to be ideal in all situations you would normally use powdered milk for, but it really seems to work fairly well (plus it's fortified with loads of vits!), so it's worth considering if you're in the UK and looking for powdered milk for a recipe where that isn't the main ingredient (it's not even bad tasting on its own, but I do think it needs other flavouring in as well).

[Miso Vegan]

Yer clever! I would never have thought to use it in cooking (since I too have heard it's foul). Not sure what I would have done instead - donated to a food bank, perhaps.

[Though, I do take a bit of issue with this, "I don't think it was ever her intention to have formula to replace breastmilk for any length of time, as some people seemed to believe, just in case of emergencies" since none of us said that and we tried to make it clear that since you already offered to help, we wanted to share our other unrelated thoughts as experienced breastfeeding moms.... Maybe I am being extra sensitive since I feel I started the whole commotion and was misunderstood.]

[gr8flgrl]

^^ you rabble rouser, you :p ;)

[Miso Vegan]

It's the guilt and sense of unfairness, I can't let go! :umm:

[mamaquilla]

ah Miso we love ya anyways!!!!!!!!!!! ;) :kiss:

[atouria]

I'm really glad you said that miso, because it upsets me as well. Dropscone rocks for sending the formula, too. :)

{{miso}}

[downwithapathy]

I'm not a parent, but I too have sensitivities regarding the breastfeeding issue.

I am a victim of the "ew--my body's expelling something" culture. In other people it's great. When I think of my breasts excreting milk, though, my first thought is "gross, I'm going to shower now." That's a cultural issue that I'd like to see vanish.

I am also a victim of the "ew--the baby likes my sex toy" culture. I was breastfed for a few weeks, during which my father gave my mother a really hard time. His argument was "that can't be as good for her as formula (wtf?), but I can't help but think he was just being squeamish. I was transitioned to formula and shortly thereafter surrendered to my grandmother (due to poverty--if formula played a role in this, I'm really happy I was transitioned).

I also have a knee jerk reaction regarding women's rights. I feel like people who are interested in natural parenting (not the same as breastfeeding, but there is a definite link) tend limit the father's role in child rearing. I sense a little breadwinner/homemaker vibe... which is fine where it is desired. ...but it almost seems as though women who still want careers are being frowned upon more than a few years ago. This is a just a vibe. No one yell at me. I'm admitting my own flaws here. :p

Lastly (for now), I was raised by my grandmother who was not physically able to breastfeed me. If I have children, they will be adopted (for reasons much better thought out than the above). I will not be able to breastfeed them. Harsh judgment hurts, and this is a sensitive issue. I almost want to applaud Vegan Heathen's courage in bringing this up. :umm:

ramblerambleramble

You all said good, helpful things and I'm really glad you said them. :) It's just... I understand the sensitivity, even as an outsider. I'll go away now.

[Miso Vegan]

Sonja, there is definitely a - hmm, I don't want to call it a conflict because I hate that we as a society dichotomize everything (and most especially, I hate the term "mommy wars") - there's an undercurrent of taking sides. Yes, a vibe, but more, since it's a topic of many essays, blogs, articles....

__eta: note: the rest of my thoughts were taken from your post but not necessarily specific to the things you said, but connected... anyway, I don't mean it to be taken personally, they're just thoughts I have.____

I really wish it would go away (the polarization); I don't know how to help that happen other than wait out the process as the details get worked out.

I think that each woman has to work out for herself how she will juggle the job of breastfeeding with her choice of roles in society. But I think it is not just the mother's job to nurse, but also the baby's birthright. Women's rights pale compared to a baby's rights, since the baby did not choose to be born and are, as your choice of words indicate, "victims" of their parents' choices. Who are we to not breastfeed the children we insisted on bringing to life? There's a point where I think that we as mothers have to stop being selfish about our goals and even our societal pursuits - it's temporary, the period of breastfeeding, and can be managed with a career, though society makes that hard. The problem in my mind is less about who should be the breadwinner or caregiver, but about how we can set up our society to actually and meaningfully support breastfeeding moms.

Because healthy kids (or unhealthy kids) impacts society down the road, it should be a societal concern. Breastfeeding isn't just about physical health - though the benefits to child's health and also to the mother's health are measurable - it's also about mental health. The effects of a poor attachment between child and primary caregiver are also measurable.

I myself think - know - it's possible to support women's rights and infant rights (such as they are). I don't think they need to be separated, but people do separate them. I see mothers every day doing feminism. I have watched mothers manage (with greater or lesser difficulty, depending on external factors) breastfeeding and careers.

I also take issue with people who feel judged. Where there is none (as how Vegan Heathen read our responses). So much of feeling judged is what we bring to it ourselves, not what the person is actually saying. So if a person feels judged, I believe it is their responsibility to inspect that, deconstruct it, and work through it without automatically blaming the other person.

It annoys me that everyone feels the need to make this disclaimer: "but some women cannot breastfeed, and therefore..." Because we aren't talking about those women who make up a small %age of the mothering population. A much bigger % of new mothers can breastfeed, physically, and are choosing/being pressured to not breastfeed and I'm much more concerned about preventing that choice than I am about protecting the feelings of <5% of mothers who are physically unable. I am more concerned about the effects of poverty on breastfeeding rates, of the effects of racism on breastfeeding, and the effects of ignorance on breastfeeding. Hell, I'm concerned about the incredible negative environmental impact of formula.

Formula has its place. It had a place in your life. It has a place in the lives of many. But people who are tiptoe-y around the subject give the impression that supporters of breastfeeding want to do away with formula, and no one has said that. What I want is for mothers to never have to choose against breastfeeding because of external forces. When I judge a non-nursing mother, it's reserved for white girls' angst (take my cousin, as a prime example!) that breastfeeding is icky or weird and make choices that negatively impact their child. Or my other cousin, who chose a boob job and then couldn't nurse.

Oh, apparently I could write my own essays, blogs and articles, :) but a lot of it's been written by more articulate people.

And, adopting mothers can learn to breastfeed.

[downwithapathy]

Again, you're saying good, helpful things. :) I just wanted to convey (in my way) things that have already been conveyed. :) I was not in any way arguing against breastfeeding.

[Miso Vegan]

I'm glad I didn't come across rudely. :)

[gladcow]

This topic coming up again has grabbed my interest. I'll tell you all my breastfeeding story...
I come from a long line of breast feeders. GGB breastfed all 6 of her children (even during the advent of formula), my mother breastfed all 4 of her children. My sister breastfed all 4 of her children, including twins (who were eventually supplemented with formula. but they were born premature and had to be in the hospital for a month after birth and she pumped the whole time). In short (long) really awesome inspiring breast feeders. When I was pregnant with my first child, I was extremely squeamish about the idea. (even though I was breastfed so long that I remember breastfeeding) It, along with natural childbirth, was something I thought was a great idea, but also something I was unsure I could do. And something I was uncomfortable with the thought of. Even after my first was born I was squeamish. My sister sent me this card with a nursing baby on it (very graphic illustration) right after Simon was born and it freaked me out. But I believed in breastfeeding. I think that is what my family's breastfeeding legacy gave me. I believed it was best and I wanted to do it even though it freaked me out. I worked through it and exclusively breastfed both of my children past one year. Could a different culture (more pro-woman, more pro-women's bodies, etc) have changed my squeamishness? I don't know. Maybe. After experiencing natural childbirth, and breastfeeding, and attachment parenting, and vegan parenting I feel stronger in my abilities as a woman than I ever have. But I think I feel strong because of what I've accomplished. Because of what I worked through based on what I wanted. If I hadn't felt weird about it to begin with, would I feel this strong now? Or would it just feel normal?

Abrupt change of conversational stream: my sister in law had a cute baby boy about a month ago. my MIL called this morning with questions for me because they are supplementing with dairy formula and my (non-vegan) MIL is worried the dairy is causing congestion in the wee one. I'll be giving her some advice, but it is a little depressing. I don't know my SIL well enough to give her unsolicited breastfeeding advice and that is sad.

[Miso Vegan]

Well, a bit of a bummer about your SIL. But take it as a compliment they're coming to you for advice, and aware that dairy may be causing congestion!

[atouria]

I want to share,too, but i'm bf'ing atm. Just wanted to say that you guys give me warm fizzies. :)


ETA: LOL, I mean warm fuzzies. ;)

[Miso Vegan]

:no:

IME, fizzies are best served chilled.

[the bean]

But I think I feel strong because of what I've accomplished. Because of what I worked through based on what I wanted. If I hadn't felt weird about it to begin with, would I feel this strong now? Or would it just feel normal?

I also feel stronger b/c of my birth/breastfeeding experience. I wasn't squeamish about breastfeeding in general, but I had no idea that I would end up nursing my son for as long as I have (he's 22months and not even thinking of giving up nursing yet). I think the feeling of strength for me comes from knowing that my body is helping to sustain the life of my child. It is an incredible feeling.

As for breastfeeding an adopted child, there is info (http://www.amazon.com/Breastfeeding-Adopted-Relactation-Elizabeth-Hormann/dp/0976896974/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/002-6406783-1689607?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1180755856&sr=8-1)out there on this subject if you decide that you are interested. I wouldn't want you to think that it is not an option for you just b/c you would be adopting. From what I have read, it is certainly not simple, but it is possible.

People breastfeed and continue breastfeeding for all different reasons. For me, it has to do w/the bond I have formed with my child, and I cannot imagine our relationship without it.

[MissLovely]

The problem in my mind is less about who should be the breadwinner or caregiver, but about how we can set up our society to actually and meaningfully support breastfeeding moms.


Amen, sister.

[MercurialMary]

real bellies (http://theshapeofamother.com/home.php)

real boobs (http://www.007b.com/breast_gallery_A.php)

all beautiful, purposeful and unique. I don't know if I'll ever be at peace with my body, but I do know that having a baby and breastfeeding took me a lot closer to peace than any eating disorder or exercise program ever did. I grew up with a very skewed view of women and feminism. Having my own daughter is teaching me a lot about myself.

My mom breastfed my oldest sister 6 mos, my middle sister got formula, and I was breastfed 6 wks. I breastfed my daughter 1 yr, and she weaned herself at that point.

I worked full time and pumped up to 3 times a day, often doing data entry with my free hand!

I don't think ill of anyone who choses formula.
Oh, and I agree strongly with everything that Miso said.